Atlantis & Tiahuanaco
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Introduction & Contents
Introduction.
This is just a new restart attempt to rewite more readibly/understandably our paper/article on our discovery/thesis that the capital city and large island of Atlantis is positively Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku and South America.
In 1999 using the details of the Atlantis Account, and general knowledge of history and geography we narrowed down Atlantis to either/both of the Americas (including/exluding Lesser Antarctica) or the Armorica Plate/Euramerica/Avallonia/Appalachia, and the "sinking" to either continental shift or crust displacement. Between a little after 2009 and a couple/few years before now (2015), we were finally able to further narrow down the Atlantis island / plain / city to South America / Peru / Altiplano / Titicaca, and the same year after scouring all of Peru/Altiplano/Bolivia/Titicaca we were finally able/forced to see that the capital city certainly matches Tiahuanaco (and nowhere else).
Tiahuanaco/Peru/South America is the only best match for all the details of the Atlantis Account without bending/forcing details. It has matches for most all of the details of the Atlantis Account, and some matches are stark/undeniable.
Although our discovery/thesis was mostly independent, we can not claim any much credit for the discovery because we were a little bit influenced/helped by Jim Allen's "Atlantis in Bolivia" in being able to further narrow down which of & where in Americas the city/plain/island was (which we otherwise possibly might not have been able to do), plus he was pretty close enough for the actual city site (and he may even have also/alternatively nominated Tiahuanaco himself). (We had previously favoured North over South America.) Also we have since found that a number of other people have also located Atlantis city in Tiahuanaco/Peru/Andes (some prior to us, some maybe about the same time, some after us).
Also, we already knew that others had already nominated crust displacement / pole shift. (We had previously favoured continental shift over crust displacement.)
Furthermore we are heavily indebited to (Posnansky, and to) Sitchin's 'Lost Realms' (and to Alford's 'Gods of the New Millenium') for alot of information about Peru and Tiahuanaco. (Critics should note that neither Sitchin nor Alford mentioned/hinted any personal opinion at all about Atlantis in Peru.)
[In addition, we would not have been able to do this at all without a pastor helping me with being able to have unfluoridated (and non-alluminium-laced) artesian water in my bad situation/condition.]
Contents.
The sections are posted in reverse order from the smallest very centre of the city out to the broad World-wide narrowing-down details/things of the Account.
We have so far rewritten and posted below the following chapters:
the Hill / Cleito
the temple
the palace
concentric circles city
the Plain
2 crops a year
Atlas name
Gadeira name
large or small island?
the "sinking"
shoal/"muddy sea"
north or south
Pillars of Hercules
far or near? [only partially redone, not quite finished]
ocean or sea
boats and seafaring evidence
the Invasion & war [new re-addition, not all finished yet.]
true or myth?
the Opposite Continent [new re-addition, not finished.]
refs [not yet added pre-Platonic].
Errata, & Addenda. [newly added. Addenda not finished.]
For the other sections/details/matches that we have not re-written anyone can see the previous not very well written versions at:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,33901.0.html
https://2rbetterthan1.wordpress.com/atlantis-south-americatiahuanaco/
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,33831.15.html
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,34543.0.html
And on the 9000 years date our 3 only-best scenarios:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=15853.75 (page 6) (posts 86, 88, 89)
It is too difficult to add pictures/photos, sorry. (I only have dialup. I am not a premium member yet. Too difficult to keep editing pages with pictures through-out them.)
Some of our Atlantis Tiahuanaco pictures are at:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,33831.15.html
Some of our old Atlantis search pictures at:
http://picasaweb.google.com/seanbam2/Antipodean
the Hill / Cleito
#. the low Hill (dwelling of Clito).
"... there was a mountain/hill, not very high on any side. In this mountain/hill there dwelt ... Cl(e)ito. ... enclosed the hill on which she dwelt all around...." Critias 113d-e.
The Hill = the Akapana mound/"pyramid"/"hill made by hands of men" (central Tiahuanaco), which stands-out in Tiahuanaco drawings & descriptions, and which is also surely/fairly remarkible (if not unique) in all the world?
We can clearly see the clitoris-shaped Hill and the enclosure in this map/diagram of Tiahuanaco from Posnansky (& Sitchin & Alford & Daniken).
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=284;image
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=287;image
www.condoramericano.com.ar/historia/Tiahuanaco.htm
(The Akapana also had 7 terraces.)
This is as good as having the name Clito written in pictures (with no linguistics dispute) [like we also showed Atlas written in pictures].
The Hill/Akapana (or else pillars?) is also seemingly/maybe shown in the Inca picture from the Coricancha in the concentric circles city on the (viewer's) left side.
(Compare the African story of Amma who "circumcised the earth goddess, whose clitoris was an anthill.)
There is another similar hill/mountain in middle west Titicaca at/by/near 7 hills "Rome" site (Juli).
[Not sure if Akapana might be related to Akakor/Akator and Apaporis?]
Maybe also compare Jiskairumoko/Moko "small hill"?
(Clito may be the female figure in the Crespi collection which seems to have Atlantis concentric circles city in her head/face?)
"The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed in this wise : In the center was a holy-temple/shrine dedicated/sacred to Cleito & Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by a[n enclosure/barrier of] gold(en)...." Critias 116d.
I am not sure if this is the same as the Hill/Akapana, or is same as the temple of Poseidon, or is one of the other buildings, but there were/are a few buildings in central Tiahuanaco, and we can see in the Posnansky picture we gave link to above that the Akapana seemingly has an enclosure, and the Kalasasaya maybe has enclosure, and another building maybe has an enclosure?
Inaccessible fits the Akapana?
Clito matches one of the Peruvian goddesses (Pacha, etc).
Clito may be related to Krit/Crete?
(If the pictures are too small then try control + plus to magnify picture.)
the Temple, and the Palace
#. The Temple (of Poseidon).
"Here, too, was Poseidon's own temple, of a stadium in length and half a stadium in width.... ... walls ... lined with oreichalc. .... There was an altar, too, which in size and workmanship corresponded to the rest of the work...." Crit 116e.
"... at/in the temple of Poseidon.... ... range of the temple of Poseidon... in the temple...." Crit 119d, 119e, 120a.
"...in the temple of the god... about/in the temple/sanctuary...." Crit 120c.
The temple of Poseidon certainly seems to match one of the buildings of central Tiahuanaco, though i am not sure which one with my limited resources/etc.
[The main buildings/parts of Tiahuanaco include: Akapana (centre), Akapana East, Kalasasaya (centre), the "semi-subterranean temple" or Kantatayita temple (centre), Kheri Kala, Putuni, Pumapunku (inner ring), Lukurmata "temple" (outer ring near lake Titicaca).]
For the size of the temple (and of the altar) compare these buildings of Tiahuanaco, one of which matches the temple size seemingly:
- Akapana 257x197m (& 16.5 high) (but the temple can't be this seemingly).
- Kalasas(a)ya large temple 120x130m / 300 ft long / 400x450ft (but i can't tell whether this is the temple or the palace). /
- the throne room 160x130ft / [100x85ft] /
- the hall 45x22ft?
- "the monolithic gateway of the temple [at Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku] is the largest example of its kind in the world";
- Pumapunku/Pumapinku huge "temple" 167x116m (& 5m high) + 20m wide projections corners extending 27m, + terrace 6x38m (but this can't be the temple since it seems it is not in central island but in a ring).
A stade/stadium is either 157/150 m (Greece), 185/180 m / 606 ft (Roman), 177/170 m (Attic), 192 m (Olympic), 209/200 m (Egyptian), 211 m (Greece). Jim Allen argues for half a stade since Peru/Bolivia had base 20 not base 10. Richter proposed "stade" was for Egyptian khet which is 52/50/55 m. Some suggest that the Peruvians had a measurment called luk'a which is 60 cm.
People can either confirm the exact stades length match*, or people can just simply go by 1 x 1/2. (* Tiahuanaco has match for the temple size, and also for the distance to sea.)
Contrast/compare that Dr Kuhne's possible 50m x 40m building in Donana in Spain is half the size.
The large temple/building &/or palace/building is seen in these 2 pictures from Posnansky (& Sitchin & Alford).
One can see from the picture that we can not know whether the measurements given by my sources have given the length/width for the external or the internal parts of the Kalasasaya?
There are stone blocks with lines of nail holes, groves & niches at Tiahuanaco, indicating metal sheets lining/coating.
Maybe also compare the Temple of sun / golden temple covered with gold plates of Cuzco?
We will deal with Poseidon in a separate post/section.
-----
#. The Palace.
"The palaces in the interior of the citadel/acropolis were constructed in this wise :" Crit 116d
"...and they began to build the palace in the habitation of the god.... This they continued to ornament in successive generations... until they made the building a marvel to behold for size & beauty." Crit 115d.
"The island on which the palace was situated..." Crit 116a.
"Enough of the plan of the royal palace." Crit 117e.
The Palace seems to match one of the buildings/"temples" of central Tiahuanaco, though i am not sure which one with my limited resources/etc.
[The main buildings/parts of Tiahuanaco include: Akapana (centre), Akapana East, Kalasasaya (centre), the "semi-subterranean temple" or Kantatayita temple (centre), Kheri Kala, Putuni, Pumapunku (inner ring), Lukurmata "temple" (outer ring near lake Titicaca).]
The Kalasasaya large "temple" is seemingly either the marvelous size palace or the 1x1/2 stades temple of Poseidon.
The palace &/or temple is seen in the Posnansky map
Maybe also compare the Coricancha "golden palace" sheathed in gold plates? (The Inca picture from the Coricancha is the one with half a dozen to a dozen details of the Atlantis Account shown in it.)
the concentric rings City
#. the Concentric circles City of Atlantis.
Critias 113c-114a.
("both in city and country" Crit 114e.)
Crit 115c-116b, 116d.
(Crit 117a.)
Crit 117c-118b.
"surrounding the city was a level plain , itself surrounded by mountains which descended towards the sea...." Crit 118b
"touching the city at various points / to the city from both directions" Crit 118d-e.
Crit 119c-d.
("if any one city" Crit 120d?)
Atlantis capital city matches Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku.
We have not yet been able to totally prove the concentric circles in the ground because we have not been able to see satellite &/or aerial photos/images (of various spans / from various heights) of Tiahuanaco, and haven't been able to see many papers/reports, and haven't been able to visit and explore/investigate the site.
However, we do have some evidences of at least one or two of the concentric circles in the ground including:
- Maps/diagrams of Tiahuanaco from Posnansky (and Sithcin and Alford) show at least one or two of the concentric circles. This was one of the evidences that forced me to have to accept Tiahuanaco is the Atlantis capital city site. See these pictures:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=284;image
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=287;image
www.condoramericano.com.ar/historia/Tiahuanaco.htm .
- Written descriptions of Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku also mention "... surrounded by a moat, and the earth and clay which had been excavated from the moat ...", "... the canals which surround the site ...", "the artificial canal (or moat) ... that surrounded the whole site".
- Tiwanaku is also named Taypicala/Taypi-kala "stone/rock in the middle/centre", and is "considered middle of [the/their] world" by locals. "Its ceremonial core...".
- Books mention evidences that Tiahuanaco/Akapana was (a (sea)port) once connected with the water of Titicaca/Huinaymarca lake/sea (the only reference i can remember right now is Daniken).
- The inverse spade symbol in Peruvian may stand either for mining or for [Poseidon] digging/boring the rings? (The divine/magic/golden wand/staff "sink/sank into the earth/ground" / "strike/struck a/the stone"?)
- "4 walls surrounded by a moat which was to create the image of a scared island / holiest of shrines" (Tiahuanaco article). Palacio enclosed by double ring of earthworks (Tiahuanaco/Calasasaya)?
(The canal between Atlantis citadel and the sea may be either the/a canal in Tiahuanaco maps/diagrams, or Rio Tiwanaku, or the Desaguadero? "... the water flowed into canals which led to lake Titicaca." "It [water/canal] lead from there to wharfs at the site's north and thence to the lake."
The canal seems to be shown on the Colango stone, and on the Inca picture from the Coricancha.)
Also remember that it is proven that the Andes were pushed/pulled up abit higher in ancient times, and that there was/were quake/s at Tiahuanaco, and that there was a flood at Tiahuanaco and to south of Titicaca and the site is described as "... many more still lie buried in the ground under layers of sediment...", and Lissner (after Posnansky) says Tiahuanaco is covered in lava, so the geography is going to be a little bit different. "There were two Tiahuanaco's, one the visible ruins, the other the subterranean and invisible."
Tiahuanaco has matches for the sizes/distances of Atlantis city/centre/circles/rings.
The whole city of Atlantis was 50 stades (9.2 km, or "5 (& a 1/2) miles") radius (or 22 km diameter) distance from the citadel to the sea.
The central island of Atlantis city was 5 stades (half a mile).
Tiahuanaco described as "vast area", "several square miles in area", and/or greater Tiahuanaco (including Pumapunku etc) stretches "for miles".
Kimsa Chata/quimsa-chata is 15 km or 10-12 miles southeast of/from [Tiahuanaco or Titicaca]?
Tiahuanaco is now 10/12/13 miles/km from the lake.
One source says 13 miles from Titicaca.
Another source says "Tiahuanaco 12 m south of Titicaca"?
Another source says Tiahuanaco 10 miles from Titicaca.
The stones of central Tiahuanaco were "transported tens of miles from the nearest quarries" "some ten miles away".
A quarry 10km away [from Tiahuanaco].
Tiahuanaco city is "6.5 sq kms maximum".
One source says a few miles from Titicaca.
Tiwanaku "sits in a 3 miles width trough".
The "saced city of Tiahuanaco covered 2 square miles".
The central core island or "greater metropolis" of Tiahuanaco is almost "2x1 miles".
Pumapinku is "almost a mile to the south-west" of the centre.
"the artificial canal (or moat), some 100 feet wide, that surrounded the whole site" .
Remember that a stade/stadium is uncertainly/variously either 157/150 m (Greece), 185/180 m / 606 ft (Roman), 177/170 m (Attic), 192 m (Olympic), 209/200 m (Egyptian), 211 m (Greece). (Jim Allen argues for half a stade since Peru/Bolivia had base 20 not base 10 numeric system.)
Note that the distance between Tiahuanaco & Titicaca varies between sources; and the distance between Tiahuanaco and Titicaca was different then than now.
Some of the figures/distances of Atlantis and Tiahuanaco are (roughly) the exact same distance.
[The main buildings/parts of Tiahuanaco include: Akapana (centre), Akapana East, Kalasasaya (centre), the "semi-subterranean temple" or Kantatayita temple (centre), Kheri Kala, Putuni, Pumapunku (inner ring or centre?), Lukurmata "temple" (outer ring near lake Titicaca).]
We also have local pictures confirming that the concentric circles city was in Peru/Bolivia.
This Peruvian (Chimu/Mochica) mask has the 3 concentric circles city with the Atlas pillar motif rising from it:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=281;image .
The Inca picture from the Coricancha depicts half a dozen to a dozen details of the Atlantis Account in it including the concentric circles city (the globe/circle/"earth-symbol/Pachamama" & "rainbow/arch" on the lower left, and also possibly the concentric circles in the left side of the lake/sea on the lower right?, and also possibly the dot at end of the line/canal from the lake on the lower right?)) [The dot is either the city or lake Poopo? The circles in the lake in some photos may just be an illusion of the photo/s, since other photos just show few marks there not circles?] See pictures here:
www.labyrinthina.com/inca.altar01
http://galacticdoor2011.blog.com/files/2011/12/gold-map-in-coricancha.jpg
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=277;image
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258222#msg258222
http://f.tqn.com/y/archaeology/1/S/7/_/1/coricancha-altar.jpg
https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjzoefq_uC-uY9Rlbm17PO-5-m9Q949X_MsBjMoiDH79axPuVvE2g6vOHp2BWH31yfBhW8IHmDoIFGs12H2bLZX92WG-Nqngw5750Ck-Z0HCtFbP0m7xe03fWXNWIc0_-k4c_K_MD8QtSI/s320/Altar+de+Coricancha.jpg
The Sillustani inscription (from n.w. Titicaca) shows the concentric circles city (the "spiral") and possibly the cliff/s (the wedge shape)? See
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258214#msg258214
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=290;image
This inscription from Pumapunku (part of Tiahuanaco) shows the concentric circles:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258214#msg258214
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=288;image
- Posnansky has concentric circles symbols ("geometric .... circles and ovals") drawings from gateway of the sun at Tiahuanaco. See picture of them here:
www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sitchin/reinosperdidos/reinosperdidos10.htm
- The concentric circles city is certainly shown in this Chanchan/Chimu inscription:
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=282;image
- Concentric circles city & lake/sea seen in Calango stone from Peru (ref picture & text in Sitchin's 'Lost Realms').
- The concentric circles city is maybe also shown in the head/face of the female figure in Crespi collection?
(Maybe also compare concentric circles in one or two other pieces of the Crespi collection.)
- Uru/Chipaya/Coipasa village concentric organisation.
- Concentric circles also in the "3 windows" drawing of Salcamayhua (ref picture in Sitchin 'Lost Realms')?
- "Radiating cross", petroglyph, northwest of Titicaca (Sitchin 'Lost Realms' fig 134)?
[- The hats of Peruvians might connect with the small hill and concentric city?]
- Atlantis/Tiahuanaco may be the "ra/dag/zal/revolving-sun/spiral/whorl/cup-marks" in Menes tomb lesser labels (ref Waddell) [which may be in Urani/Amenti/Aaru "land of the sunset"?]
Other Peru sites also have similar features/names:
Kenko "twisting channels".
Chingana "labyrinth".
3 carved channels between Ilyapa temple & rainbow temple (Cuzco)?
General confirmation of the capital city of Atlantis being in vicinity of Tiahuanaco includes:
- Huinaymarka (the southern part of Titicaca) means "eternal city". (There are also stories of a lost underwater city 'Wanaku' in lake Titicaca.)
(Perhaps also compare the 7 hills "Rome" site in vicinity of Juli in middle west Titicaca.)
- Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku has been called "the cradle of American man" (and "American Stonehenge"), and "the Baalbek of the New World" (refs Posnansky, Alford, Sitchin). "I would say that i consider this the oldest antiquity in all of Peru." "... the most ancient place of any i have yet described."
- Tiahuanaco is significantly roughly-halfway between two of the highest/greatest mountain peaks of the Andes & (South) Americas (Illampu/Sorata and Illimani). "Nowhere else in the world, perhaps, can a panorama so diversified and grand be obtained from a single point of view." These were evidences that forced me to accept Tiahuanaco is the site of Atlantis city.
- Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku city & lake Titicaca is (inverse) analogy of Eridu city & Persian Gulf.
- Tiahuanaco is in the supposed "world grid", and on "a ley line".
- Peru is right on the equator line in one of the maps of Pole shift periods (compare "under the sun" in Atlantis Account).
- The candelabra at Paracas indicates Atlantis city is in Peru area?
[- Kirchir's map of Atlantis seems to match South America and seems to suggest 1 of 2 locations for the city/plain: Venezuela or Peru?]
- Atlantis city seemingly may be similar to descriptions of Manoa/Eldorado &/or Akakor/Akator?
The ditch coming "to the city from both directions" matches the Posnansky map/diagram. (See picture at www.condoramericano.com.ar/historia/Tiahuanaco.htm or the other links we posted above.)
Some sources have Atlantis plain/city on the (south-)east side of the island, but some have the plain/city on the (south-)west side.
Various translations of Atlantis Account say that the plain and city of Atlantis were on the side of the island "towards the islands", on the sea side of the island, in the longest side of the island, in the [n-s &/or w-e] midpoint/centre of the island, near the sea [inland sea or ocean coast]. Tiahuanaco/Titicaca/Andes/Altiplano/Peru best fits all of these details of the Account.
We searched all around the Americas, and all around Peru/Bolivia/Altiplano, and all around Titicaca, but only one place fits the bill and nowhere else does.
We have considered other concentric circles city of Atlantis candidates but none of the places match all the details of the Atlantis Account (including size, distance, direction, large plain, mountains, the sea, elephants, remains of buildings/city/civilisation, date, "sank"/vanished, etc). These sites include:
Pueblo Bonito.
Projection on continental shelf off Florida.
San Lorenzo in east Mexico.
Tenochtitlan in Mexico ("surrounded by water" in lake).
Chalco glyph in Mexico.
the Caracol in Citchen Itza.
Out from Orinoco river mouth (anomalous about 5 km [diameter?] circular object in google satellite photos).
Chankillo, Peru.
Ilave peninsula in mid west Titicaca.
Khapia/Yunguyo peninsula in sw Titicaca (ring shape).
Cerro Santo Vilca / Pampa Aullagas by Poopo in Bolivia (3 sandy channels separated by rings of land).
isla Allan/Moro/Negrone, Uro islands / Puno bay/Paucarcolla bahia area in n.e. Titicaca.
Stede Citades "7 cities".
Maiden Castle, Dorset, UK.
Stonehenge (5x2, circles).
Hyperborea temple of spheres.
Heligoland in North sea.
Caphtor "knob".
Donana area in sw Spain (circular features and building/s traces).
El Carambolo inscription, Seville, Spain (concentric rings city).
Syracuse/Ortygia in Sicily.
Crete/Krit (name related to Clito?)
Thera/Santorini in Cyclades/Aegean.
Troy in nw Turkey (7 circles).
Israeli menorah (similar to Atlantis Cross).
Ecbatana in Media/Iran (7 circles).
Angkor Wat in Cambodia/Kampuchea (irrigation channels surrounding city, 38 sq miles).
[Huanki (3 tiered circular terrace) / Tian Tan, Peking/Beijing (circular, concentric rings).]
Sommes island of Wellington harbour in NZ (circular shape, island in centre).
Apam Napat.
Hollow Earth theory.
Some of the concentric circles in places around the World (& in Peru/Altiplano) do confirm the historicity of Atlantis, and its real appearance/layout/design/shape (& where it is).
(Concentric circles cities may have been a followed design/model/plan common to more than one site. Other concentric sites may be later copies of Atlantis, or they may both be from common source. They seemingly may have been designed as an analogy/mirror/microcosm to the spheres of heaven &/or earth.)
Peru is full of ancient cities.
Stede Citades in Brazil.
The only 2 civilisations known outside of Europe and Asia in the whole world that could match Atlantis are Peru and Mexico.
the large Plain, & "2 crops a year"
# large rectangular plain (& channels) :
"fairest of all plains" Crit 113d.
("lakes & marshes/swamp & rivers, and ... mountains and on plains" Crit 115a.)
"surrounding the city was a level plain , itself surrounded by mountains which descended towards the sea ... 3000 stadia ... from the sea through the center of the island 2000 stadia; the whole region of the island...." Crit 118b-c.
".... It received the streams which came down from the mountains, & winding round the plain, & touching the city at various points, was there let of into the sea. From above... toward the sea ... wood from the mountains...." Crit 118c-119b.
Not many places in the world can match this Plain being "fairest of all [in the world]", large size, surrounded by mountains, in center/mid-point of island, etc (aside from all the other details of the Atlantis Account apart from the Plain).
The large Plain matches the Altiplano on the south side of lake Titicaca. The Altiplano is roughly the right size (and shape). It is roughly in the north-south centre of the Andes/Pacific/longest side of South America. Is surrounded by mountains (Andes). It fits the "level/flat".
(I'm not sure if Altiplano is right name for the whole area right upto Tiahuanaco/Titicaca, but there is plain match there whatever the name. "The site of Tiwanaku lies in a broad plain in the rio Tiwanaku valley one of several that cut back from the souther edge of lake Titicaca into the huge plateau of the Bolivian Altiplano." Tinajani basin / Titicaca basin ?)
The only uncertainty is that some translations/interpretations seem to imply that the city/sea was in the middle of longer not shorter side, and/or that the plain width extended up the country thru the center of the island 90 degrees rotation different direction? Though the Lee translation says "at its midpoint 2000 stades in breadth from the coast"?
(Also, remember that it has been proven that the Andes have been pushed/pulled up abit higher in ancient times, and that there was a flood at Tiahuanaco and to the south of Titicaca. So the geography may be a little bit different now.)
Other plains / etc that i have checked do not match all the details of the Atlantis Account (including Nazca ("grassy") plain, the great plains (USA), the Llanos/Ilanos (Venezuela), Shinar (Iraq), Planalto, Entre Rios, the continental shelf off Florida, Strabo's 1000 stades extension of Spain, Raliegh's Parima area, Pampas, Salisbury plain, Caribbean sea floor south of Cuba, etc).
There is evidence that the plain was once "fairest". Peru is known to have had a Pacific climate before Andes suddenly pushed/pulled up higher (and before air/water currents changed).
(Surely ours beats the Gulf Stream theory.)
Jim Allen and other sources like bibliotecapleyades show satellite pictures of geoglyphs on the southeast & southwest of Titicaca, and near / north of Tiahuanaco, and in the Altiplano which match the criss-crossing channels/canals (and population).
(Sajama lines 22525 sq km, 16000 km, 10/20km?)
Peru/Bolivia still has the sukukolos "raised fields" agriculture system, and/or waruwaru agriculture system.
Cultures of other times/places in Peru/Andes also had same/similar canals/channels systems reminiscent of Atlantis/Tiahuanaco:
raised fields Umayo?
network of canals (Chavin);
system irrigation channels (Moche/Chimu/Chanchan);
irrigation networks (Moche/Sipan)?
Abundant harvests from irrigation system (Moche/Chimu)?
Sources say "Atlantis had a network of canals not ever seen/found in Europe", so Europe is ruled-out by them & by us for that reason (aside from other reasons too). (Strabo/satellite does have canals in Guadalquivir(-Tinto) area in Spain, but s.w. Spain doesn't fit all the details of the Atlantis Account.)
We could possibly compare the highly fertile floating gardens/canals of the valley of Mexico, but Mexico just doesn't fit all the details of the Atlantis Account.
The large plain is also confirmed in these local pictures:
- the Inca picture from the Coricancha shows the large rectangular plain & surrounding ditch & criss-crossing channels ("long criss-crossed object"), as well as showing half a dozen other details of the Atlantis Account. See picture at:
- a picture in the Crespi collection seemingly may also show the plain with criss-crossing channels.
The plain may also be the "ussa/the bright field of tas(ia)" in tomb label of Menes [which may be (Aa(en)ru/Aalu) in Amenti/Urani "the land of sunset"]?
* [This links with the 2 crops a year which also matches our Tiahuanaco/Titicaca/Peru/Altiplano/Andes site:
- The ancient suka_kollus "(flooded-)raised field(s)" summer & winter farming/agriculture system of Tiwanaku / Altiplano / Peru / Bolivia, which "produced impressive yields".
- The Inca picture from the Coricancha shows half a dozen details of the Atlantis Account including the 2 crops a year ("sun & moon / stars & clouds = summer & winter").
- The sun & moon in picture of waruwaru agricultre.
Hyperborea also had 2 crops, but if Hyperborea is Britain: Britain doesn't match all the details of the Atlantis Account.
HG Wells mentioned that in Mesopotamia wheat yielded 200-fold (ref Herodotus) and was cut twice (ref Pliny), but Iraq doesn't fit all the details of the Atlantis Account.]
Kampanakis' "Platonian tradition" map in Berlitz has plain & city on sw side similar to ours, and it is in roughly same situation in his Atlantis island as ours is (except that his Atlantis is rotated 90 degrees and fliped 180 degrees).
Additions to the Plain section/post:
Tiahuanaco is located within centre of geoglyphs around southern Titicaca & northern Altiplano.
"the plain of Tiahuanaco".
"at the edge of a great plain basin".
"the plain in which the lake is situated".
"the flat depression which was occupied by the lake and its southern shores".
"the whole great tableland of Peru and Bolivia ... with ... its own plains ...."
"the valley or plateau on which Tiahuanaco is situated. Nowhere else all around the lake is there such a level plateau."
Atlas name/place, & Gadirus name/place
Atlas/Atlantis name.
The Atlantis Account says that the names were Greek translations of Egyptian translations of Atlantean names, so there may not be any names matches with/in the real Atlantis locality and may only be meaning/nature match, though Atlantis literature does have some compelling evidence that there may be a name match.
Aristotle's name was Antilla/Antilles [1st half of his name similar to 2nd half of "Plato's" one]. Atlas "900(0) yrs, 1st king" might be cognate with Hittite Alalu(s) "9 years, 1st king". In Egyptian S(h)u = "Atlas", and/or Shu (vs Antwey/'ntywy) = "Hercules" (vs giant "Antaeus/Antaios" son of Poseidon, of Libya, separated from earth by raising in the air [Atlas/Andes]).
The Phoenician Sanchuniathon mentioned Kotilus, Kedarus & Jaminus. Kedarus is likely Gadeirus (twin of Atlas). It is possible that Atlas is Kotilus?
There is certainly an Atlas meaning/nature match with/in our Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku / Peru / South America:
- The Atlas world pillar motif is prominent in Peruvian pictures (the spade symbol above head in masks), and in this Chimu/Mochica picture it is even seen rising from the concentric circles/rings city (which is as good as having "Atlas" name written in pictures (without any linguistic dispute) just like we showed Clito in written pictures) http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=281;image .
- Chibchacun bear earth on his back (Chibcha/Columbian).
- Rairu's father Karu "sky maker" (South American, ref Pears)?
- the Atlas mountains in farthest west North Africa (not in Spain) are analogous/parallel/mirror position to the Andes in South America (not North America).
- the Andes qualify as near heaven/sky/space re astrology & the theory/temple of the spheres of Atlas/Hyperborea, and re Atlas mountain/pillar holding up sky.
- the Atlas motif is also found in continents/regions neighbouring South America:
In Polynesia the stone pumice hats of the moai statues of Easter island may be Atlas pillar motif; god Ru = "Atlas".
In Mexico we have a few examples of Atlas motif ('9 Wind' lifting sky band;
4 "Atalantes"/columns/pilasters uphold/support roof temple (pyramid Quetzalcoatl, Tula);
"you uphold the mountains" (Aztec);
platform tombs supported by y-form stakes;
giant dwarfs holding aloft sky) (ref SC Compton 'Exodus Lost').
- Atlas (world pillar/tree/mountain) holding up the earth &/or sky/heaven (compare word athelete, and whence our modern 'atlas' name for book of world maps) well fits Peru in the farthest south & western part of the World (from the north & east).
-The meanings of the names of Tarshish &/or Kittim in Genesis 10 in the bible seem to match Atlanteans, America, heliolithic (which included Peru), oreichalc, and ships/seafaring (see http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21830-table-of-70-nations-gen-10/ ).
(The meanings of the 5 sons of Cush also seem to possibly match the concentric circles capital city, and it is interetsing that one researcher identifies Kusa of Indian with South America.)
- an early map of Europe has the crown on south-western-most Spain in south-western-most Europe [re King Atlas?].
- "Atlantis" in Kirchir's map is very close match to South America in its shape/rivers/etc.
There may also be an Atlas/Atlantis name match with/in our Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku / Peru / South America:
- Atalaia near Cuzco.
- isla Allan (in the Urus/Uros area).
- god/king Atau (maybe related to Maori Atua or Aztec Ahau). Aclla? Ayar? Ynca? illja?
- Posnansky thought Tiahuanaco was the Aztlan of the Aztecs/Mexica.
- it is said that Jim Allen said Peru/Bolivia has name/word Atl "water" (though i am not sure if this is mistake for the Atl/Atonatiuh "water" of Mexican).
- Tahuantinsuyo / Antisuyo/Antisuco / antis/Andes.
[- "Alpha"?]
[- I can't remember from memory whether goddess Atlatona is Mexican &/or Peruvian?]
- The Atlantic was known as that since at least the time of Herodotus (before Plato, after Solon). (South America is in the Atlantic.)
There are of course some Atlas motifs in other places in the World such as the dolmens of UK, the Celts "sky fall on head", the Mexico ones we gave above, Samson pushing over Philistine temple pillar/s, etc, but (none of these other cultures have as prominent Atlas motif as Peru does, and) none of these other places in the World fit/match all the major details of the Atlantis Account. These other examples do verify Atlantis historicity, and may help indicate where Atlantis is.
-----
# Gadirus.
"the extremity/furthest-part of the island towards the pillars of Hercules, as-far-as/and-facing the country which is still/now called the region of Gades in that part of the world" Crit 114c.
Gadeirus/"Eumelus" twin of Atlas (in the Atlantis Account) has lots of suggested candidate matches, including some which agree with our Atlantis in South America.
Gadeirus/Gadiron/Gdr "enclosure, fortification/fortress/fort, walled city" / "sheep fold"
~ Cadira (Venezuela)? walled enclosure/fort of Stede Citades "seven cities" (burnt, ne Brazil)? Cates/Cati ("this way", Azores/Quechua)? Gradlon (k of Ys)? Hu Gadarn (Welsh)? Goidelic/Gaels? Agadir (Morocco)? Gadir/Gades/Cadiz (sw Spain)? Gadeira (Necho's fleet)? Geryon? Celtus (son of Hercules)? Ceuta? Egadi (Sicily)? Gadira (Pantelleria / extremity Malta)? Il Ghadira (Malta)? Gozo (Malta)? Gabes (Tunisia)? Hades? Symplegades? Getae? Ogaden (Ethiopia)? **Kedarus (Sanchuniathon)?** Baal-Addir "mighty lord/master"? Gad "fortune"? Kedar "dark, black skinned"? Cedraei? El Khadir "Green one"? Kaptara (pole star, Assyrian)? Al Jazirah? Agade/Akkad/Accad? Kadi? Gedrosia? Kattigara? Adirondacks (east USA)? Yucatan?
Eumelo(u)s/Eumel(o)us/Eumelon "rich in sheep" / "good music" / "best honey"
~ Melite/Malta? Eumelos (Cyrene)? Melos (Minoan)? Eumelos (Thera)? melon/melum "apple"/"goat"? mal- "bad/evil"? melanin "dark (brown), black"? pleiades swarm of bees bees (Tupi Guarani)?
Some sources say Gadeirus &/or Gades was tentatively linked with Geryon/Herion and Erytheia island near Spain (of Hercules, and Strabo), which was far to the west of the known world, beyond the pillars of Hercules, "near the ocean", and one of the Hesperides. This is just a theory though.
The Ethiopian sea and/or the Erythrean sea/"Red sea" was the South Atlantic.
American Indians are sometimes called red.
"Red" &/or Helios could link with "under/beneath the sun" of the Account?
"under the rays of the setting sun" may be similar to Urani/Amenti "land of the sunset" (which we have shown is maybe connected with Atlantis).
The Phoenicians came from the Erythrean/Red Sea.
Guaracy/Heres was a Guarani/Canaanite sun god.
Large or small island?
#. Large island/continent or small island/city?
The question of how large/small an "island" Atlantis was is one of the most major narrowing down questions because if Atlantis was large then it considerably reduces the location candidates ("not looking for a needle in a haystack" as Hancock('s research assistant) put it). As it is, although the Atlantis Account "called Atlantis an island [not a continent]", the Atlantis Account does clearly say/imply that Atlantis was a large island/landmass/continent not just a small royal island capital city:
- Atlantis was "larger than Asia & Libya [Africa] together/combined" ("about the size of Antarctica/USA"). Some claim that the Greek can read "between" not "larger than", but the great majority of translations of the last 2500 years agree with "larger than", and the other details of the Account also still say/imply Atlantis was large. [Americas may also qualify as "between" Asia in (north)west and Libya/Africa in (south)east?] Some imply that it was "Asia or Libya" not "Asia and Libya", but most versions say "and", and it is still large even if the size of Asia or Libya. Some claim it is just the empire/sphere of Atlantis not the island of Atlantis, but other details of Atlantis account still say/imply Atlantis was a large island, plus it is far more extent than what just one small island/city can control/dominate/project. Herodotus said Europe was as long as Asia and Libya put together and its breadth [euros?] is not even comparable with them (though in another place he also says Asia and Europe are the same size/shape). Theopompus said Meropis was larger than Europe, Asia and Libya combined.
"larger than Libya &/or Asia together/combined" Tim 25a.
"extent greater than Libya and/or Asia" Crit 109a.
- Atlantis had a large plain.
"surrounding the city was a level plain, itself surrounded by mountains which descended towards the sea ... 3000 stadia ... from the sea through the center of the island 2000 stadia...." Crit 118b.
- Atlantis had high(est) mountains; it also had many villages/cities, lakes, meadows, marshes/swamps, plains, woodlands/forests, rivers. (Some sources say/imply that Atlantis had a great river or great rivers?)
"The whole country was described as being very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea" Crit 118a-118b.
"lakes & marshes/swamp & rivers, and ... mountains and on plains" Crit 115a.
[a "great river" ~ Crit 118a?]
"the surrounding mountains celebrated for their number and size ... exceed all that are now to be seen anywhere; having in them also many wealthy inhabited villages, & rivers & lakes, & meadows...." Crit 118c.
"It received the streams which came down from the mountains, & winding round the plain, & touching the city at various points, was there let of into the sea. From above... toward the sea ... wood from the mountains...." Crit 118d-118e
"if any one city" Crit 120d.
- Atlantis had many species of animals, including many Elephants.
"every kind of animal tame and wild" Crit 115a.
"great number of elephants" Crit 115a.
"horses and cattle" Crit 117c.
"... supplying food enough for every animal, wild or tame...." Crit 118c.
"And of the inhabitants of the mountains...." Crit 119b
- Atlantis had a large army and population (as estimated from military data etc).
"And of the inhabitants of the mountains and of the rest of the country there was also a vast multitude" Crit 119b.
- Atlantis is stated to have been somewhat self-sufficient (the island supplied most all needs).
"many things where brought to them from foreign countries, & the island itself provided much" Crit 114e.
"all these that sacred island" Crit 115c.
- The English clearly implies that Atlantis island had 10 kings' (cities &) (large) regions/provinces/parts, not just that their empire/sphere did, with Gadeirus' one at the extremity of the island. (This also matches the 9/10 arcs/bows of the world in Egyptian, and/or maybe matches the 12 parts of Urani/Amenti/Tuat/Pet/Aaru.)
"a part/particular-district of it/the-island" Crit 113d.
"dividing the island of Atlantis into 10 portions/parts" Crit 114a.
"his mothers home-district/dwelling & the surrounding allotment/land, which was the largest" Crit 114b.
"gave them ... a large territory" Crit 114b.
"the extremity/furthest-part of the island towards the pillars of Hercules, as-far-as/and-facing the country which is still/now called the region of Gades in that part of the world" Crit 114c.
"all the 10 portions/provinces" Crit 116d.
"other 9 governments.... Each of the 10 kings, in his own division" Crit 119c & Crit 119d.
["10 countries Mu"?]
- "a-number-of/many parts/localities of/in the island" Crit 115a.
People could consider this to fit a small island, but surely it better fits a large island.
- The Atlantis Account saying in a few places the "whole island" makes more sense with a large island than a small one.
"In/at the centre/mid-point of (the longest side of) the island" also makes more sense with a large island.
"the whole island and the surrounding ocean" Crit 114b.
"on/in this/the island was a great & wonderful empire ... over the whole island" Tim 25b.
"in/at the center of the (whole) island" Crit 113d.
"the rest of the country. The whole country was described as being very lofty and precipitous on the side of the sea" Crit 118a-118b.
"... the whole region of the island...." Crit 118b.
"... and of the rest of the country...." Crit 119b
"in the middle of the island" Crit 119d.
- the "violent/terrible earthquake/s & flood/s", "extraordinary rain", and "great(est) deluge" implies a very large catastrophe that "sank" a large island.
"quakes of extraordinary violence" Tim 25d.
"great deluge of all / greatest of all destructions by water" Timaeus 23d.
- the Account imples a vast shoal/"muddy sea"?
"[vast] quantity of mud" Tim 25e (& Critias 109a).
- "island(s)/isle(s)" in ancient cultures like Egyptian, biblical, Greek could mean any of either : (small/large) island, continent, peninsula, coastlands/shores/sealands, peloponesus, planet, the old world "world island", pangaea.
Aristotle seems to call continents surrounded by sea "islands".
Australia is sometimes called either an island or a continent.
[If there was a continental shift, then South America could have been more of an island before continental shift?]
- Atlantis was (called) a "land".
"in that land" Crit 115b?
"a remote land in the middle of the ocean" - Timagenes.
- traditional sources have it that either the whole earth was divided up between Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon, Poseidon(is)/Neptune/Atlantis and Hades/Pluto, or else that in the Western sea/ocean there were 3 large(r) islands of Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon, Poseidon(is)/Neptune/Atlantis and Hades/Pluto (and 7 small(er) islands of Persephone/Proserpina).
"gods ... distributed the whole earth .... Poseidon receiving for his lot Atlantis" (Crit 109b-109d, &) Crit 113c-113d.
"... seven islands ... and three others of great size ... a thousand stadia in area...." Proclus.
- other sources also agree that Atlantis was large.
"island equal in size to Libya or Asia" Tertullian.
"not far to the west of Europe ... memory of a larger island" Proclus.
"a large island was swallowed up" Marcellinus.
Kirchir's spurious map shows Atlantis as a large island-continent similar to North/South America.
The continent Maurigosima (& king Peiru-un) of Chinese?
The 2 continents/landmasses/islands Kusa & Pushkara, or Vishnukranta of Indian?
Now, which of the 7 continents can be the large island of Atlantis?
Pangaea is ruled-out because:
- Atlantis was a seemingly separate landmass to Europe & Asia, "Asia & Libya", "Europe & Libya" in the Account.
- only Atlantis "sank" (and Athens was effected) not the whole world.
Australia is ruled-out because:
- Atlantis was west/western according to one or more classical sources.
- Atlantis was opposite pillars of Hercules.
- Atlanteans invaded/conquered upto Tyrrhenia & Libya/Egypt [from west].
- Atlantis was (a distant point) in the Atlantic.
- Atlantis has been placed in Australia by "none" except "one".
- the Great Dividing range is the only possible match for the high mountains there.
Antartica is ruled out because:
- Antarctica is too far away.
- Antarctica is too far down.
- Atlantis was was "west/western" according to one or more Classical sources. Antartica is not western on any of 4+ map projections (except that Lesser Antarctica is in western hemisphere).
- Antarctica was 2 islands not a continent at one stage.
- Not "sank/sunk"/"vanished/disappeared". No ice mentioned in the Account.
- Nothing yet found there (in the way of civilisation).
Antarctica can't be Atlantis, it (Lesser Antarctica) can only possibly be part of Atlantis if/when connected by Scotia land bridge with South America.
Asia is ruled-out because:
- Atlantis was west/western according to one or more classical sources.
- Atlantis was opposite pillars of Hercules.
- Atlanteans invaded/conquered upto Tyrrhenia & Libya/Egypt [from west].
- The Account seems to imply that Atlantis was a separate landmass to "Asia & Libya/Africa", "Europe & Asia".
"against the whole of Europe & Asia" Tim 25a.
- Atlantis was (a distant point) in the Atlantic.
- not "sunk" / "vanished/disappeared"
Pacifica/Oceania is ruled-out because:
- Pacific is islands not large-island/continent/landmass.
Orthodox sources assert there are no sunken continents in Pacific Ocean (except for the likes of Zealandia).
- There are intervening continents and oceans on both sides.
Europe is ruled out because:
- Atlantis had a "network of canals not ever seen in Europe" (though there was a canals network in Tartessos area).
- the Atlas Mtns are in Africa not in Spain.
- the Atlantis Account seems to imply that the farthest Gadira extent of Atlantis was towards/opposite Gades, but was not Gades?
- opposite/facing Huelva/Tartessos/Cadiz would be south & west.
- Gadeira/Gades might be Agadir not Cadiz/Gades?
- Dio Sic said Atlantis was # of days sail off/from Africa. (Africa sticks out further than Europe.)
- Proclus seems to imply Atlantis was out/off from Europe. Marcellinus may imply off from Europe though he could imply on/in edge/coast of Europe.
"not far to the west of Europe..." Proclus.
"in the Atlantic sea, on the coast of Europe" - Marcellinus.
- in an early anthropomorphic map of Europe the crown is on south-western-most Spain in south-western-most Europe. [Strabo's 1200 stades extension of Spain might also been seen as implying similar?]
- The Account seems to imply that Atlantis was a separate landmass to "Europe & Libya/Africa", "Asia & Europe".
"against the whole of Europe & Asia" Tim 25a.
- Atlantis was (distant point) in the Atlantic.
- Atlanteans invaded/conquered upto Italy & Libya/Egypt.
- Atlantis was beyond/opposite the Pillars.
- Atlantis was in the real ocean, not in the small inner/Mediterranean sea.
- Atlantis was in the "west/western" sea/ocean in one or more Classical sources.
[- Maybe also note that Theopompus said Meropis was larger than Asia, Libya and Europe?]
- Not "sunk" / "vansihed" (except continental edge/shelf).
Africa is ruled out because:
- Dio Sic said Atlantis was # of days sail off/from Africa (Dio Sic);
- Kirchir's spurious map shows Atlantis between one of the Americas and Africa.
- The Account seems to imply that Atlantis was a separate landmass to "Asia & Libya/Africa", "Europe & Libya/Africa".
- Atlantis was opposite the Pillars.
- Africa has not "sunk" / "vanished" like Atlantis.
- Atlanteans invaded upto Tyrrhenia & Libya.
- Atlantis was (a distant point) in the Atlantic.
- Atlantis is "western" in one or more Classical sources.
- West Africa doesn't have any major ancient civilisation match.
- "A tribe in Guinea which is located on the Atlantic coast of Africa performs a ceremony where they reenact an ancient tradition that white men came down from the sky (flight) and from an island that no longer exists [Atlantis? pre-Flood?] in very ancient times, to administer laws and justice. (Interesting that Plato said the Atlantians held control over much of Africa)."
"8th continent" "Atlantis" in Atlantic is ruled-out because:
- Present orthodox oceanographic/geophysical evidence/theory is that there are no sunken/submerged large land-masses on the seafloor in the Atlantic.
- The mid-Atlantic (Azores) is moving up/out not down/in.
- Maps that use true continental edges do not show significantly large enough gaps in the Atlantic between Europe/Africa and Americas when they were originally joint together to fit such a large missing piece like Atlantis into
Armorica Plate/Avallonia/Euramerica/Apallachia:
Atlantis can only be either/both of the Americas (including/excluding Lesser Antarctica) and/or the Armorica Plate/Avallonia/Euramerica/Apallachia.
It does not seem that Atlantis can be the Armorica plate....
North America is ruled out because:
- the Atlas mtns are in Africa not in Spain/Europe.
- Dio Sic said Atlantis was days sail off/from Africa (though North America does overlap with Africa as weel as Europe).
- Kirchir's spurious map looks less like North America and looks more like South America.
- North America was half covered with ice at some time/s then.
- North America is centred further west than South America.
- North America doesn't have match for the combination of the Plain, Mountains, Sea, civilisation remains, etc. We searched all around the Americas and there is only one place in North & South Americas that fits/matches the plain, mountains, sea, city and civilisation/culture etc, and that is the Andes/Peru/Altiplano/Titicaca/Tiahuanaco.
South America is the only best match for Atlantis:
- Atlantis was a large island / continent, "larger than Libya & Asia together" (not as large as Europe, Asia and Libya together). Americas is the 2nd largest landmass of the world (the Old World is the largest). South America is a large island / continent.
- Kirchir's spurious map looks alot like South America.
- South America has the only best matches in the Americas and in the World for the large Plain [Altiplano], the high Mountains [Andes], the Sea [Titicaca], the city/civilisation remains [Peruvian], etc.
- The Atlas mountains in far n.w. Africa (not in Europe), and they are an analgous/mirror/parallel situation to the Andes in South America.
- Atlantis was seemingly a separate landmass to "Europe & Asia" / "Asia & Libya" / "Europe & Libya".
- Atlantis was (a distant point) in the Atlantic.
- South America is opposite the Pillars of Hercules on some map projections.
- South America is centred further east than North America, so South America can be seen as between Old World & North America.
Africa sticks out further than Spain/Europe.
- Atlantis was "Western" in one or more classical sources.
- Dio Sic said Atlantis was # days sail from Africa.
- Some keep objecting that it didn't "sink", but we have shown that the "sinking" was either/both crust displacement and/or continental shift (and that there is matching evidence in the Andes / (South) America for either/both).
- If there was a continental shift then the distance would have been anywhere upto half the current distance.
- Atlantis was "at the ends of the earth", "remotest" Dio Sic 3:56.
"Atlanteans were unmixed with other mortal stock" Crit 121.
This fits Peru as the (southern-&-)western-most civilisation at the ends of the world.
- South American fan palm in Assyrian depictions of Toakkari sea peoples.
Co-caine and tobacco in New Kingdom mummies.
- The statue of man on horse pointing [?south-]west with word/name cati/cates "this way" (Quechua) in Azores.
- Andes is the world's most major copper/tin region.
- the 10 kings may link with 9/10 arcs/bows of the world in Egyptian, and with the 12 sections of Amenti/Tuat which may imply the new world / western hemisphere (12 hours)?
- the traditions associated with the 2 'Sete Citades' Lakes in Azores seem similar to the 2 parts of Lake Titicaca (Lake Chucuito & Lake Huniaymarca).
the "Sinking", and the "muddy sea"
#. Atlantis "sinking".
"the destruction of the actors" / "destruction of human life" Timaeus 21a.
"after the deluge, to tell of Deucalion and Pyrrha" / "how Deucalion and Pyrrha survived the flood" Tim 22b.
"there have been and there will be again many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes. There is a story ... that ... Phaethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all there was upon the earth.... ... this ... signifies a declination of the bodies moving around the earth & in the heavens, and a great conflaguration of things upon the earth recurring at long intervals of time" / "There have been and there will be many different calamities to destroy mankind, the greatest of them by fire and water, lesser ones by countless other means. ... story of ... Phaethon, child of the sun, harnessed his father's chariot, but was unable to guide it along his father's course and so burnt up things on the earth ... is ... truth that there is at long intervals a variation in the course of the heavenly bodies and a consequent widespread destruction by fire of things on the earth." Tim 22c-d.
"When on the other hand the gods purge the earth with a deluge of water...." Tim 22e.
"whatever the extremity of winter frost or summer sun does not prevent" / "where excessive cold or heat does not prevent it" Tim 23a.
"then, at the usual period, the stream from heaven descends like a pestilence..." / "when the periodic scourge of deluge descends" Tim 23b.
"you remember one deluge only, whereas/though there have-been/were many (of them)" Timaeus 23c.
"for many generations the survivors of that destruction" / "the few survivors tha remained" Tim 23c.
"that great deluge of all" / "the greatest of all destructions by water" Tim 23d.
"for in those days the Atlantic was navigable" Timaeus 25a.
"... there occured violent earthquakes and floods, and in a single day and night of (extraordinary) rain all your warlike men in a body sunk into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared, and was sunk beneath the sea. And that is the reason why the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is such a quantity of shallow mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island." / "there were earthquakes and floods of extraordinary violence, and in a single dreadful day and night all your fighting men were swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis was similarily swallowed up by the sea and vanished; that is why the sea in that area is to this day impassable to navigation" Timaeus 25d-e.
"... afterward sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to the ocean." / "... subsequently overwhelmed by earthquakes, and is [now] the source of the impenetrable mud which prevents the free passage of those who sail [to the sea beyond]" Critias 109a.
"Many great deluges have taken place during the 9000 years..." Crit 111b.
"There was a single spring in ... [Athens] that was subsequently choked by the earthquakes..." Crit 112e.
"... then still under/beneath the sun..." Critias 115c.
One of the common criticisms of others against "Atlantis [city/plain/island] in the Andes / South America" is that they claim that Atlantis "sinking" and Andes raised don't match; and it has been said that Atlantis can't be "dry land based theories".
The problem & solution is that people have not considered all the possibilities for Atlantis "sinking". Either the land went down, or the water went up, or the land &/or water went sideways. The main suggested candidates for the Atlantis "sinking" of others and/or of ours include: Atlantis sank/sunk/subsided (including gas theory (Mu)), submerged by rising sealevels, tidal wave/"tsuanmi", tidal bulge (Lunar capture), (the Great) Flood, volcanic explosion, Earth crust displacement, continental shift, near pass-by of planet/comet (Venus/Mars/Nibiru/Luna), meteor (~ Eridanus), ice jolt-slip-shift, exploded planet hypothesis, expanding earth, axis tilt, sea/air currents change, heavens/sky/stars moved, figuratively sank/sunk.
Now let us take the Atlantis Account and world history/geography and use elimination and deduction to rule out or rule in the candidates.
Ruled-out:
Literal sinking/subsidence (land went down):
Atlantis "sinking" can't be literal sinking because the details in the Atlantis Account certainly imply that Atlantis was large, and the land would still be possible to find down below &/or nearby, and there are no sunken large landmasses in the Atlantic ocean (ref Hancock etc), or Indian ocean (ref Jantsang etc), or Pacific ocean (except "Zealandia"/etc)? The mid-Atlantic is emerging up/out not down/in. How can mountains next in size to Himalayas have went down, and how is it that such high mountains haven't been found down under? Some translations don't say sunk/sank but "swallowed up" / "disappeared into the depths of the sea" / "overwhelmed" (though some translations do say sunk/sank, and other sentences/parts do seem to imply that Atlantis [appeared to have] "sunk/sank")?
Rising sealevels / submerged (water went up):
Atlantis sinking doesn't seem to be (just) rising sealevels because: The Account seems to say sank/sunk not submerged? Only Atlantis sank/vanished not (coasts of) rest of world. All of Atlantis "sank" not just the coasts, and it wouldn't have made the sea distance/duration that much greater to not be able to find the land nearby, and Atlantis would still be easy to find down below on submerged land. If sealevels were too much lower the strait of Gibraltar would have been land. No quake/s.
Tidal Wave / "Tsunami" / Sea Slosh:
Atlantis sinking can't just be tidal wave because: Atlantis would still be there and would not have appeared to have sank/vanished. Atlantis catastrophe may have included sea slosh though.
The Great Flood:
Atlantis sinking can not be the Great Flood because: Evidence is that the Great Flood was world-wide while only Atlantis sank/sunk (and Athens effected) not all the World. Atlantis was a separate landmass/continent to Old World, where as the continents in bible seemingly didn't split up until after or/and "during" the Flood. The Flood didn't necessarily/definitely include quakes (though some say "break up of fountains of great deep may be tectonics). Not necessarily any rain in Atlantis Account (though some translations do say "single night/day of rain"). Account says "1 day & night" not 40 / 310 days. The Account mentions the "3rd deluge". Though the Atlantis Account may have combined the Flood into/with Atlantis Account.
Volcanic Explosion (Thera):
Atlantis can't be volcanic explosion because: The Atlantis account doesn't seem to say anything about volcanic activity or blowing up. Volcanic explosion also doesn't necessarily entail "sinking". Thera also has not "vanished/disappeared".
Carthaginian propaganda:
All the evidence of the Atlantis Account and our paper seems to support that Atlantis did "sink"/[shift].
Not ruled-out:
Crust Displacment / Pole Shift/wandering:
The Atlantis "sinking" catastrophe may be or include crust displacement because: The Atlantis Account mentions "change in path of the sun" (Phaethon, ref Flem-Ath), and that Atlantis was "then under the sun" (ref Hancock). There is evidence of pole shifts, and Peru was on the equator at one stage in past pole positions/shifts maps. The Account does mention terrible quake/s & flood/s.
The "great(est) deluge", and the [vast] shoal indicates a large scale catastrophe event.
Crust displacement nullifies the contention that Atlantis had to be on same faultline as Athens (though some say that the 2 armies may not have been destroyed in same catastrophe/time).
Plato's 4 world ages may be linked with the 3 deluges and may reflect pole shifts.
The only possible problems are that: Would this scenario byitself include Andes being pushed/pulled up higher? Atlantis wouldn't have appeared to have "sunk"/vanished, though displacement would have caused seas to slosh over land which may match Atlantis "swallowed up" by sea? A/the change of compass points directions & lost bearings would not likely have made them not able to still know/find where Atlantis was (unless it was just due to the "muddy sea", or unless sea/air currents changed).
(No ice is mentioned in the Account re Antartica etc (except possibly the bit about winter frost / cold).)
starsfelltoearth hitchingpostofthesun
Continental Shift:
Atlantis "sinking" may be or include continental shift because:
The Account mentions "terrible/violent quake/s and flood/s.
Atlantis was large island that "sunk"/vanished". If America/Atlantis shifted then Atlantis/America would have genuinely appeared to have been swallowed/"sunk" / vanished/disappeared.
It could account for the birds, lemmings, eels and butterflies going out and looking for land about half way (though some say this is not actually true) (also maybe compare that I think i remember seeing one or more early sources saying ships went out to look for Atlantis and could not find it?)
It has been proven that the Andes were pushed/pulled up abit higher in ancient times, and tectonics theory does inlcude mountain ranges being pushed/buckled up.
Shift would have caused seas to slosh over land ("flood/s"?).
Shift has possible matches for "muddy sea".
The [vast] shoal indicates a large scale catastrophe event.
There are catastrophism sites on west coast of Americas from Alaska to Mexico and from Bogota to Fuego.
Stonehenge (contemporary with Mycenanean) damaged on southwest side.
Shift would mean the Altantic would have been anywhere upto half the current distance/width/duration, partially alleviating a common objection to our thesis about distance/projection/ships. (Previous shift/s may also mean there were Atlantic land bridges re Poseidon came before ships, and re animals getting there from Ararat?) The Atlantis Account and/or other early Atlantis sources seem to imply that Atlantis was not too far, like only a few days sail?
Continental shift nullifies the contention that Atlantis had to be on same faultline as Athens (though some say that the 2 armies may not have been destroyed in same catastrophe/time).
Possible evidence against shift includes that: The Piri Reis map maybe seems to show Americas the same distance? South America would be abit further down/south from facing/opposite the Pillars (and from the statue pointing west in Azores?)
(Our scenario is that the Atlantic was once anywhere upto half the current distance and then there was a sudden shift and it widened to the current distance.
The scenarios for continental shift in order of likelihood are firstly either (i) both Americas and Old World shifted outwards, or (ii) just Americas shifted west, or (iii) just Old World shifted east; and secondly either (i) both Americas shifted, or (ii) only South America shifted.)
* Continental Shift is not necessarily "geologically impossible/indefensible". Aside from the possible evidences listed above, other possible evidences of continental shifts (as opposed to "continental drift(ing)") include:
....
* Here is a list of some of the evidence that the Andes must have been/were once lower and have been pushed/pulled up abit higher in ancient times:
- Tiahuanaco monolithic/megalithic buildings/monuments can't have been built/raised/moved in such high altitude / rarified air/atmosphere (altitude sickness / hard to breathe).
- Peru/Andes had a Pacific geo-climate. The fauna of Peru is similar to Pacific.
- Calcified remains marine plants Andes.
[- "Titicaca contains known sea life"?]
- [raised beaches / cross bedding] (with human culture remains [nets, pottery, stone implements, cloth in strata/cross-bedding, staircase]) up in the Andes/Peru (Ancon & Valparaiso).
- "sea ports in the Andes".
- lake Titicaca's "old water lines are slanted".
[- Lissner (after Posnansky) says Tiahuanaco is covered in lava.]
[- "mega disaters Pumapunku"?]
- Antaeus/Antwey raised in ari by Hercules?
(Refs include C Berlitz, C Darwin, I Lissner, I Velikovsky.)
* The "muddy sea" / "shoal" seems to be from either/both crust displacement and/or continental shift (and sea slosh?), and the shoal/mud could match either:
- sea floor sediments in the Atlantic.
- banks/bars or rise (or Brendan's island/whale).
- "mucky water Bermuda"?
- weed in sea around Spain/nw Africa in some early maps [similar to Sargasso Sea and/or the Red/Reed/Weedy Sea]?
- Sargasso sea??
The shoal might be same as the shoal of Sesostris [12th or 19th dyn] in Herodotus?
There are muddy sea places in "Ptolemy's" map, and it is said there are lots of shoals around Malta, but the Account implies a vast shoal/"muddy sea" (and Atlantis itself can't be in those places because they don't match other details of the Account).
(The Account might also/alternatively possibly be refering to Titicaca lake/sea?) Peruvian also mentions llullaillaco "llulla/dirty yacu/water"? And "mud that floats" (Uros)? (There are also submerged reedy/muddy areas in Uros areas of north and south Titicaca.)
other American myths confirm mud:
agregations green scum / expanse slippery mud (Zuni);
mud banks (Hopi);
great expanse of fetid mud (Chiriguano);
pesi "rice water" (Thai)?;
mud (Crow)?; clay (Creek)?; red clay (Cree)?
There are evidences of quake/s in Tiahuanaco/Peru. Stone buildings "blocks tossed/scattered"?
Cracked 'gate(way) of the sun'.
"broken megaliths"?
Cerro santo vilca / Pampa Aullagas earthquake damage on west.
It is well known that there is a Tiahuanaco flood or 'Unu Pachacuti' "water overturns land" in Peruvian "myth", and that there are evidences of a flood or floods at Tiahuanaco and south of Titicaca. "... many more still lie buried in the ground under layers of sediment from ... flooding from Lake Titicaca." Tony of Atlantipedia claims the flood/s date "long before Atlantis" but this is disputiple since orthodox dating methods are unreliable. It is been said to us a few times that in "myth" Tiahuanaco was built after not before flood, but some stories say before flood and there were two floods: the Great Flood and the Atlantis deluge.
There is even a possible match at our Tiahuanaco site for the one day/night mentioned in the Atlantis Account. "... legends claimed that Tiwanaku was built in a single night, after the Flood...." "... all that are there appeared overnight."
Inca king-lists/myths have a "night without/withno sunrise/dawn for 20 hours" or 'chamak-pacha'/period of darkness" ca 1400/1394/1391 bc parallel to the long day / sun stood still of Joshua ca 1393 bc in the bible. Both are roughly same date as the Atlantis war/sinking date of ca 1400s bc (900 yrs before Amasis) of some chronologists.
(The myth and the archaeological are linked, the archaeological quake and flood, and the traditional flood and long night are linked.
Evidence of 2 catastrophes at Tiwanaku, "an avalanche/flood of water, and a sudden upheaval of unknown nature".)
There seems to be some confusion between the deluges of Ogyges and Deucalion (or the 2nd and 3rd deluges) in Classical myth re Atlantis and/or Phaethon. The Deucalion and Atlantis deluges seem to be about the same date in Athenian king list. (9 days deluge Deucalion might link with 9 days tempest Shu ["Atlas"]?)
Additions to this section from American and/or other "myths":
seismic upheaval & stars fell to earth (Washo).
stamped his foot so hard on ground that flood gushed forth (Tupi-Guarani).
brought earth to top as fast as fish nibbed away.
Antaeus lifted-up?
moon falls on/to earth.
sky fall on head (Celtic).
North or South?
#. North or South?
"whatever the extremity of winter frost or summer sun does not prevent" / "where excessive cold or heat does not prevent it" Tim 23a.
"opposite ... the pillars of Hercules" - Tim 24d.
"... then still under/beneath the sun..." Critias 115c.
["The climate of Atlantis was once extremely good; a gentile breeze blew constantly...." Critias 115, 118; Dio Sic 5:19.]
"the whole region of the island lies toward the south, and is sheltered from the north [wind]." Crit 118b.
"They had 2 harvests a year, a winter one ... and a summer one...." / "Twice in a year they gathered the fruits of the earth - in winter ... and in summer...." Crit 119a.
The Atlantis Account doesn't clearly say whether Atlantis was north or south, except maybe for the bit about "sheltered from the north (wind)", and "faced south". (Some maps show Atlantis city/plain on the south(-west) side, some show it on the south(-east) side.) One or more Classical sources say Atlantis was "west/western (sea/ocean)". Homer's/Odysseus' Scheria/Phaeacia is also disputed whether south or north.
Evidences for (modern/ancient) south, &/or against (modern/ancient) north.
- the Account says "faced south". South America is south. Titicaca/Altiplano does partially face south-west, and/or there is evidence South America moved (rotated?) abit.
- Peru is on the equator in one of the pole shift maps re "sheltered from the north (wind)". (Compare Atlantis was "then under/beneath the sun" of the Account?)
- "Necho's fleet went south [searching for Atlantis]".
- the Atlas mountains are in farthest North Africa (not in Spain/Europe) are analogous position to Andes in South America (not North America).
- we searched all around the Americas and only Peru matches the details of the Account (civilisation, mountains, plain, the sea, etc), nowhere else in North/Central/South America matches.
- the Ethiopian sea / Erythrean sea was the South Atlantic.
- Poseidon/"the real ocean"/Atlantic indicate water/sea/ocean. The southern hemisphere has more water.
- Gozo and Malta may be analogous position to Gades and Atlas which may be analogous position to North/Central America and South America?
- One book i have says Diodorus' Atlantis island was # days sail from/off Libya/Africa coast. (Hercules vs Antaeus was also in Libya.)
- Egyptians "up/top" was south.
- Herodotus' Hypernotians.
- Hyper can mean beyond?
- Atlantis in Kirchir's map looks more like South America than North America (in regards shape, rivers, mountains, centred further east, etc). (Kampanakis' Atlantis also looks like South America.)
- North America is centred further west than South America, South America is centred further east than North America. (South America can be seen as between North America and Old World, as Atlantis was (in Kirchir's map).)
Africa sticks out further than Spain/Europe.
- the statue that pointed [?south-]west in Azores was connected with the word/name cates/cati "this way" in *Quechua*.
- Piri Reis map mainly shows South (& Central) not North America (except Florida)? (Though i can't remember if sources say it showed Greenland ice free?)
- (The north pole was at one time then in North America, and) North America was alot covered with ice at sometime/s then (and may fit "parts of the opposite continent"?).
- The Inca picture from the Coricancha does possibly show the "sheltered from the north (wind)" &/or the "faced south" detail of the Atlantis Account in the two n-s & w-e (+ & x) compass points crosses at the top?
- Atlas bearing up the earth &/or the heavens/sky fits Peru in southern-&-western most ends of civilised world.
- Atlantis at "the ends of the earth" and "remotest" (Dio. Sic. 3:56) and "once unmixed with other, mortal stock" (Critias 121) and "a distant point in the Atlantic" fits Peru at south-&-western-most ends of world.
- The 3 large islands of Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon, Poseidon/Atlantis and Hades/Pluto in the western sea/ocean may possibly match North America, South America and Antarctica (not sure which way around).
- South America is opposite/facing the Pillars of Hercules on some map projections.
- There is possible evidence of tilted compass points. Compare Zanne's map. The North Pole was at one stage in North America/Greenland. The Inca picture from the Coricancha has a + compass points cross and a X compass points cross. The route of Viracocha is at [45 / 90] degrees tilt (see Sitchin 'Lost Realms').
- in an early anthropomorphic map of Europe the crown is on south-western-most Spain in south-western-most Europe. (See http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?132958-Historians-note-that-Odin-who-was-a-very-popular-Thracian-ruler-Thracians-a-hidden-history/ .)
- In orthodox history/archaeology books the oldest agriculture/civilisation in Americas is in Peru.
- Recent years' findings suggest that in the Americas, "south & east is older than north & west" (ref SC Compton 'Exodus Lost').
- Stonehenge damaged on south-west side (ref G Hawkins)
- Assyrian depictions of Toakkari 'Sea Peoples' bearing South America fan palm. (Co-caine and tobacco in new kingdom mummies.)
- "north" is anywhere north of south pole?
- Caphtor might be Heligoland not Altantis.
- opposite/facing Gades (and/or opposite the pillars at Huelva/Tartessos/Gades) would be south & west.
- Gadeira may be Agadir not Gades/Cadiz.
- K Bolton's dowsing result for Atlantis (which i witnessed) was South Atlantic.
Evidences for north / against south:
- the Account says "sheltered from the north (wind)".
- Strabo's "sacred promontory" Spain, extended 1500 stades further.
- North/Central America is more directly opposite/facing the Pillars of Hercules. (Plus if there was a continental shift then South America would be even abit further down.)
- Kaptara "where pole star stands at zenith".
- Spanuth claims Phaeacia/Scheria was in the north (and claims Atlantis was in the north).
- Hyperborea.
- Ha-Saponi "northerners" of pre-prophetic biblical.
- Antarctica is too far down to be Atlantis (though it may be part of Atlantis if was landbridge link to South America). (South pole was once in/over the sea.)
- No crossing of equator mentioned in the Account (except perhaps the "under the sun").
- Atlantis was larger than Asia & Libya. The northern hemisphere has more land than southern.
- The "Aryans/barbarians" always came from the north (in Greek, Indian, Iranian, Egyptian, Sumerian, biblical, Polynesian, Mexican). Some thought the Aryans from "north pole" (Aryana-vaejo?)
- Modern/ancient map projections / world-views centred on the North Pole (Denderah zodiac, UN(O), Superman, Santa Claus / Father Xmas, Symmes' 'Flat Earth' theory zetetic projection, Great Pyramid geodesic representation of northern hemisphere, European "up/top" is north, ...'s navel of the world/earth, the north pole was at one time then in North America).
- "south" is anywhere south of north pole?
- Spanuth uses the label "North Sea Peoples".
Egyptian accounts of "north 'sea people(s)'" say "from the ends of the world/earth", "great darkness", "9th bow/arc", "the isles and mainland of the outer circle of water".
- murex purple from Mexico (ref SC Compton 'Exodus Lost').
- the statue in Azores pointed west not south-west?
- "in the Atlantic sea, on the coast of Europe" - Marcellinus.
"not far to the west of Europe ... memory of a larger island" Proclus.
- Kirhcir's map could be North America.
- 2 mountains ranges pushed-ups in western coast side of North America. (N America could have shifted twice.) N America is centred further west than south. (N America could have shifted further west?)
- "between Asia & Libya" could better fit North America (between n.e. Asia & n.w. Africa).
The Earth divided up between the 3 gods Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon, Poseidon (Atlantis) and Hades/Pluto may connect with Mesopotamian Enlil north, Anu middle, Ea/Enki south; and Biblical Japheth north, Shem middle, Ham south? (Though in the biblical case it may be just northern hemisphere, with it being reverse way around in southern hemisphere?)
Most all high cultures/civilisations arose in the tropic of cancer latitutde band, a.k.a. the 10 40 belt, the resistant belt, the pyramid belt. But at least one (Peruvian) was in the tropic of capricorn latitude band.
the Pillars of Herakles
# (outside or inside) the Pillars of Hercules?
"opposite ... the pillars of Hercules" - Tim 24d.
"in front of / opposite the straits which you call Pillars of Hercules" Tim 25a.
"this sea which is within Pillars of Hercules is only a harbour having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea." Tim 25b.
"and besides these, they subjected the parts of Libya within the strait/Pillars of Hercules" Tim 25b.
"liberated all the others within the limits of Hercules" Tim 25d.
"war ... between all who dwelt outside the Pillars of Herucles and those who dwelt within" Critias 108e.
"the extremity/furthest-part of the island towards the pillars of Hercules, as-far-as/and-facing the country which is still/now called the region of Gades in that part of the world" Crit 114c.
"and also ... in the other direction over the country within the pillars / on this side of the straits as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia" Crit 114d.
According to the vast majority of translations/interpretations of the last 2500 yrs from Plato to the present, the Atlantis Account seemingly says/implies that (the Atlantic/ocean and) Atlantis was oustide/beyond/opposite/facing the Pillars of Hercules, (and that (the Mediterranean and) Athens was within the Pillars,) and that the Pillars were in the vicinity of Gibraltar/Gades. Herodotus (after Solon, before Plato) also seemingly has (Tartessos & the Celts beyond) the pillars of Hercules at Gibraltar? There were pillars of Melkarth &/or pillars of Hercules at Tartessos/Gades/Gibraltar (Peutinger, Pindar/Strabo, Eratosthenes, Servius). There is a Hercules place-name at Huelva [which seems to probably be the location of Tartessos]. (Tradition claims Iber & Celtus the 2 sons of Hercules.)
[If the pillars of Hercules are at Gibraltar/Gades/Tartessos/Huelva, then facing/opposite pillars can only be south-&-west?
South America is opposite the Pillars on some map projections (Cairo-centred map, North Pole-centred map, Zanne's [pole shift] map, Kirchir's map see community.adlandpro.com/forums/post/2393680/all-about-cosmic-cycles-and-ages/4.aspx , http://picasaweb.google.com/seanbam2/Antipodean).]
Until now this has been a simple enough case. However, unfortunately this has now become complicated. As with some other of our discoveries/theses, orthodox academics who think that they are all-right gods and that others are all-wrong dumb dogs have brought (just) a few linguistics criticisms which they make-out are supposedly proof for their Mediterranean location and dis/proof against Atlantic locations like ours, while they ignore/dismiss all the many other Atlantis details/evidences. According to one new translation that is said to be authoritatively closest/truest to the original Greek, the Account says that Atlantis was inside the Pillars and Athens was outside the Pillars. This doesn't dis/prove anything against all our other many evidences/matches, but it must be answered or shown to not contradict our location or else these scathing/mean academics will continue to believe they are all-right and to dismiss ours as supposedly all-wrong/dumb.
"Atlantis was inside the Pillars, Athens was outside the Pillars".
What does this actually dis/prove? What the actual interpretation/application/conclusion of this translation is still difficult/uncertain. It doesn't prove where the Pillars (&/or Atlantis) were, and/or their conclusion doesn't fit with other Atlantis details/evidences/matches. (The Pillars could be anywhere between Tiahuanaco and Athens.) They also don't say whether it is the same for/with the other references to the Pillars/straits/mouth in the Atlantis Account?
[Plus, even if the pillars were possibly at Sicliy it still wouldn't prove Atlantis was near there, because Atlantis invaded/conquered up to Tyrrhenia & Libya/Egypt and it is possible that the verses refer to their extent/sphere/empire?]
They also claim that Atlantis was in close/near proximity to the Pillars, and/or was in the mouth. This may not be right [e.g. protu/before & inside mouth/pillars can not be the same?], or else if it is right it still doesn't necessarily definitely dis/prove anything against our location (& many other evidences) as it can/could still agree with our thesis (i.e. there are still seeming possibilities for it matching our location).
Their same translation also says "outside they came from the sea of Atlas" which they say means they "came outside". This can seemingly well fit/agree with our Atlantic/Titicaca location and not necessarily just with their Mediterranean limitation.
[Also note that depending on where the Pillars were, inside/outside can be relative-view of either side/both sides.]
Atlantis was too large to fit in the Mediterranean (see the section/chapter "large or small island?").
There were variously either "2", "3", or "12" pillars/columns/stelai/slabs of Hercules. Egyptian has 4 pillars of the firmament/heaven. Santos listed 9 sites identified as locations of pillars of Hercules. Zamaro has identified 13 locations of pillars of Hercules around the Classical known Old World.
Known locations of pillars of Hercules include near the Rhine in territory of the Frisians or in the Baltic, Gibraltar/Gades, Messena/Sicily (Scylla & Charybdis), Cape Maleas/Laconia/Peloponnese, Dardanelles/Bosporus (Symplegades).
Tony of Atlantipedia suggests Capo Colonna in Calabria may have been an early Pillars site.
There were also "the tall pillars" kept on the island of Calypso/Ogygia (of the Odyssey [& of deluge]) which some think is Azores, though others think it is Gozo (Malta). Atlantipedia says the Pillars of Hercules were also known as Pillars of Briareus, and Plutarch places Briareus near Ogygia.
There was a "name of an head of land in Britaine called _Promontorium Herculis_". Some suggest Hercules &/or Odysseus visted Germania &/or Scotland. Hercules is said to have fought Albion son of Neptune.
(The pillars of) Hercules has been corresponded with (the pillars of) Sesostris [12th or 19th dynasty]. There might possibly be a link of the 12 labours &/or 12 pillars of Hercules with the 12 tablets of the epic of Gilgamesh and 120 poles of Gilgamesh? Some say Aesir means "pillars of the world".
Some have compared the 2 pillars of gold & emerald in temple at Tyre. I once had an idea for awhile years ago that the 2 pillars might be connected with the 2 pyramids of Giza [&/or the undersea pyramid in Bahamas/Bermuda]. (Maybe compare the 2 Siriadic columns?) Another idea i had was that there may have been pillars at the ancient version of the Panama canal at Tehuantepec?
The 2 pillars are variously named or associated with either Calpe & Abyla/Abila, Hercules & Astarte [or Hera], Scylla & Charybdis. [Maybe = Iber & Celtus the 2 sons of Hercules?] The Pillars in Solomon's temple were called Jachin & Boaz.
What were the limits of the Egyptian/Greek/Phoenician world in time of Solon/Plato?
Tartessos was founded 700(0)/600(0) yrs before [Amasis 2] (that is 200(0)/300(0) yrs after Atlantis).
Gades was founded in 1100 bc.
Some think capital/kapita (of pillar/column) = Keftiou (ivory) = Caphtor(im) ("knob")/Kaptara ("where the pole star stands at zenith"). [Is it faintly possible that Gadeira ~ Kaptara??]*
Atlas (god / mountain/s) is also connected with pillar/s. In Egyptian, Shu corresponds with either/both Atlas &/or Hercules. The Atlas world pillar motif is found prominently in Peru. There might be a possibility that the 2 or 3 pillars of Hercules might be connected with the 2 flanking [pillars?] of the Atlas pillar as seen in this Andean picture http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?topic=33831.msg258213#msg258213
http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=33831.0;attach=281;image ? There may be a link with Kungkung butting down the pillars of heaven in Chinese? Incidentally some identify the twin peaked Mt Mashu with Macchu Picchu; and/or, Tiahuanaco is roughly halfway between 2 of the greatest mountain peaks of the Andes/Americas.
Though the academics will scathingly assert there is a linguistic problem that stelai means commemorative markers/slabs not supportive columns.
The pillars of Kalasas(a)ya? Kalasas(a)ya means "standing pillars" or "stone standing up"? [Tiwanaku sculpture column-like figures?] There are masssive pillars at the bottom of the Milne-Edwards deep off the coast of Peru?
And/or, perhaps it is possible that the 2 pillars might be linked with the twins Atlas & Gadirus? [Maybe compare Iber & Celtus the 2 sons of Hercules? Gadirus/Gades might be related to Symplegades??] There are 2 colossal busts or 2 stone idols at Tiahuanaco. (Perhaps note the 2 rocks "father" & "mother" left after the Flood in Zuni [Maybe ~ Kame & Keri of Caribs?]) Also/alternatively, there are 2 straits in lake Titicaca that could possibly correspond to the straits of Gibraltar / pillars of Hercules?
(Lake Titicaca which was once an inland sea might perhaps be the sea outside or inside/within the pillars? See the section/chapter on "ocean or sea".)
The pillars/portals of Hercules are usually considered to be associated with the farthest limits of the (known) world. This might be similar to that the Mesopotamians had gate(way)s/stair(way)s at far west & far east?* Hercules is considered to have went as far as Erythia / the Hesperides (in far west) / Atlas / Hades.
The 'sea peoples' came "from the pillars/pillar of heaven". A number of people think the 'sea peoples' are connected with Atlantis/Atlanteans. Egyptian records say the Sea Peoples (19th/20th dyn) came from "from the ends of the world/earth", "great darkness", "9th bow/arc" [of 9/10 arcs/bows of the World], "the isles and mainland of the outer circle of water". It is claimed that there are Assyrian depictions of the Toakkari 'Sea Peoples' bearing South America fan-palm.
[*Note: Could Gades be related to gate??]
** I noticed in a paper on Scheria/Phaeacia in "the continent" of Calabria/Italy that Italy/Hesperia in middle is maybe abit analogous to America(s)/Atlantis in middle?
*** Note, you know, i am getting d**m fed up with these "inaccurate" translations. What the hell don't they d**m write the translations correctly if they are so d**m stuck-up "smart". Why do not translations say "slabs/markers" instead of "pillars", and "fortlet" instead of "fort", etc. Don't gove me the "oh English can't accurately easily translate in one or two words complicated/different languages" because they have no darn trouble saying in few words in scathing attacks. I will dare say it is done on purpose.
Far or near?
#. Far/distant/out or near/close/in?
[This section is only partial restart & not all finished yet.]
On the one hand Atlantis can not have been too far from Athens & Egypt.
On the other hand Atlantis sources say/imply that Atlantis was pretty far, not close:
"at a distant point in the Atlantic" - Flem-Ath from a translation of the Atlantis Account.
"Atlanteans were unmixed with other mortal stock" Crit 121.
"at the ends of the earth", "remotest" Dio Sic 3:56.
"a remote land in the middle of the ocean" - Timagenes.
[Dio Sic says # days sail off/from Africa.]
[Atlas holds up the Heavens & or the Earth.]
"invaders" Tim 25d.
Tarshish &/or Kittim in bible seem to match Atlantis & Americas. One of the meanings of Kittim is "invaders, westerners".
Some asserted that Atlantis must be on same faultline as Athens, but this is answered by that the Atlantis catastrophe was clearly a world/continental/regional scale/size event.
Ocean or Sea?
#. Ocean or Sea?
"from its base in the Atlantic / this power came forth out of the Atlantic ocean" / "outside they came from the sea of Atlas" / "outside jumped from this Atlantic small-shallow sea" / ["in a distant point in the Atlantic ocean"?] Tim 25a.
"this sea which is within Pillars of Hercules is only a harbour having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea." Tim 25b.
"divers/many-other islands in the open-sea/ocean;" Crit 114d.
"... was there let of into the sea. From above... toward the sea ...." Crit 118d-118e.
Poseidon/Poseidonis.
Inland (sea) or (ocean/sea) coast?
The Atlantis Account says that the city/plain/mountains was near the sea/ocean [on the sea/islands/longest side of the island]. It is said that the sea is either an inland sea or an ocean/sea coast. Our Tiahuanaco site happens to fit/match both. In the section on the concentric circles capital city we showed that the 9 km distance from the city/citadel to the sea in the Account is roughly/exactly the same as the distance between Tiahuanaco and lake Titicaca (which was once a "vast inland sea"). (The Inca picture from the Coriancha shows a number of details of the Atlantis Account including the sea/lake.) There are not many places (in the Americas and) in the World that have an inland sea (and large plain, and high mountains, etc).
The Andes (high(est) Mountains), Altiplano (large Plain) and Tiahuanaco (the City) are also near the (Pacific) ocean.
Certain sources also give evidences proving that Titicaca & Poopo (& Salinas?) were connected with the (Pacific) ocean/sea in ancient times. "Titicaca contains known sea life". "Sea ports in the Andes". Sources give evidences that the Andes then had a "Pacific (ocean)" geo-climate.
(Atlantic) Ocean or (Mediterranean) sea?
- traditionally it is thought that the Account implies that Atlantis is "(at a distant point) in the Atlantic" (traditionally considered to be Atlantic Ocean). (Though there is a disputed about sea vs ocean, see below.)
Herodotus seems to have called the Atlantic Ocean the "Atlantic" after Solon & before Plato.
Kirchir's spurious map has Atlantis in the Atlantic.
- traditionally it is thought that the Account implies that Atlantis is beyond/opposite/outside the Pillars of Hercules / Gades and traditionally it is thought that the Account implies that the Pillars are at Gibraltar/Gades/Tartessos. (Though this is disputed, see the section on the Pillars of Hercules.)
- Atlantis was distant/remote. ["a distant point in the Atlantic" (Flem-Ath from Plato). "once unmixed with other, mortal stock" (Critias 121). "the ends of the earth" and "remotest" (Dio. Sic. 3:56). "a remote land in the middle of the ocean" (Timagenes).]
- one or more Classical sources say/imply that Atlantis/Poseidonis was in the "west/western" (sea/ocean). (- Proclus and/or other.)
- Some recent modern sources say that the Account implies/says that Atlantis was "in the [outer] 'Real ocean/sea' (pan-pelagos)" and not in the small inner Mediterranean sea. (Geopolitics also has similar view/idea of outer ocean/s and small indentations.)
"in the ocean" - Dio Sic 3:56.
"the external sea" - Proclus.
"a remote land in the middle of the ocean" - Timagenes?
Some correspond Atlantis with Scheria/Phaeacia which was "in the ocean" (Od 4:568, 5:275, 12:1).
- Atlantis was too "large" an island to fit in the Mediterranean (see our section on "large island or small island?")
Atlantis was "larger than Asia &/or Libya" and not as large as Meropis "larger than Europe, Asia & Libya. Also, Poseidon was god of earth-quakes. Americas is the 2nd largest landmass (the Old World is the largest). The land hemisphere is centred on the Atlantic.
- Poseidon / Atlantic / real ocean imply water/sea/ocean. The southern hemisphere (centred on the Antarctic) has the most water; the western hemisphere has less land / more water than the eastern; the water hemisphere is centred on the Pacific. [The "Atlantic" &/or "real ocean"/pan-pelagos could be the sea/ocean on either or both sides of Atlantis/America (Atlantic &/or Pacific/Antarctic).]
- the Atlas mountains are in farthest west North Africa (western end of Mediterranean sea).
- "in the Atlantic sea, on the coast of Europe" - Marcellinus. This more likely the Atlantic/west coast of Europe, rather than the Mediterranean/south coast of Europe.
Diodorus Siculus said Atlantis island was # days sail from coast of [west] Africa/'Libya'.
- Some connect Atlantis with the "Sea Peoples" [N-pa-iam/Haunebu(t)] who came from "the isles and mainland of the outer circle of water" / "the great water circle [sin-wur]".
- the meanings of Tarshish &/or Kittim in the bible seem to match Americas, Atlantis/Atlanteans, oreichalc, heliolithic. One of the meanings of Kittim is "invaders, westerners". Tarshish/Kittim is prominently associated with ships/fleet/navy. According to some sources Tarshish was across a sea ***** parsangs wide.
- Hrozny gave pictures/descriptions of Indus Valley seals / etc with 2 steps/feet & a boat which seemed to us to possibly be linked with Atlantis/Americas?
Atlantic Ocean or Atlantic/Mediterranean Sea?
It is traditionally thought that Atlantis was in the Atlantic Ocean. However, critics say that the Account says the "Atlantic sea/pelagos" not ocean. [The "shoal" / "muddy sea" is also called *mare* tenebrosium in some sources.]
They say that the Account uses the word pelagos not thalassa.
It is said that pelagos means shallow/small/enclosed sea not deep/big/open sea/ocean.
They further say that there were 3 concentric water circles (pelagos, thalassa, panpelagos // pontos, pelagos, okeanos), and that the Mediterranean Sea had 2 or a number of pelagoses. (I see there is a mesopelagia memo in one of my files too?) [I think i saw they said something about pontus as well.]
Firstly, the word pelagos does not dis/prove anything against all the many other evidences of our location discovery/thesis.
Secondly, the pelagos can seemingly still well fit/agree with our location thesis. The 'Atlantiku pelagos' / "Atlantic sea" / "sea of Atlas" could be either lake Titicaca, the Caribbean, the (North/South) Atlantic, the Western Mediterranean?
- Lake Titicaca:
Their translation "outside they came from the sea of Atlas" / "outside jumped from this Atlantic small-shallow sea" may match Titicaca.
[The 2 'Sete Citades' lakes in Azores certainly seem to be analogous to the 2 parts of lake Titicaca. Tiahuanaco & Titicaca are reverse analogy of Eridu & Persian Gulf.]
- Atlantic ocean:
In modern usage, pelagos can mean open sea, and/or deep down. The same word pelagos is also in the 'pan-pelagos' of the Account. (Compare panpelagos with modern Panocean / Panthalassa of continental drift theory.)
Some say that the Atlantic pelagos was the only/one outer pelagos of the classical Mediterranean sea?
If there was a continental shift then before the shift the Atlantic Ocean would have been anywhere upto half the current distance/width/size and more similar to a pelagos (smaller, more enclosed, and abit shallower).
The 5 oceans are sometimes called the "7 seas" which include the North Atlantic & South Atlantic. (Haushofer/Mackinder called the Atlantic ocean the "Midland ocean".)
The word pelagos might be related to Peleg and "earth divided" of Genesis 10 & 11?
The 3 concentric sea circles of the world might possibly connect with the concentric rings/spheres of Atlantis/Atlas (which might be microcosm of the world)?
- (West(ern)) Mediterranean sea:
The Atlanteans invaded/conquered upto Tyrrhenia & Libya/Egypt.
The W & E Mediterranean Sea(s) might possibly be analogous to the 2 parts of Titicaca (lake Chucuito & lake Huinaymarca)?
Atlantipedia says some maps and texts confusedly applied the name Atlantic ocean to west Mediterranean, and state that Tyrrhenia is in the Atlantic, and that Seneca and Cicero alledgedly refered to Mediterranean as Atlantic sea.
The "muddy sea"/"shallow sea"/"shoal (of mud)".
Please see the answer we have already given in the section on Atlantis "sinking".
seas:
7 seas; "7 seas" (incl N/S Atlantic); Western sea; Atlantic; mare tenebrosium/"muddy sea"; (w/e) Mediterranean sea/"wine dark sea"/Great sea/Amurru; Wadj Wer "great green"; Irreantum; Tyrrhenian; Aegean; Tethys sea; Marratu; Red/Erythrean sea; Reed/Weedy sea; ethiopian chronian; Sargasso; Tasman; Malay sea; Caspian; Black/Euxine/pontus; Baltic; North sea; Dead/Salt sea; Titicaca; "Sahara sea"; "Gobi sea"; "Amazonian sea"; Caribbean; Aral; Ross; Galilee; Bering; Tritonis/Djerid; the "4 seas".
Atlantic or Indian/Pacific/Antarctic/Arctic ocean?
Indian ocean is ruled-out because:
- traditionally Atlantis was "in the Atlantic".
- traditionally Atlantis was beyond the Pillars of Hercules [at Gibraltar]/Gades.
- traditionally Atlantis invaded/conquered/controled upto Tyrrhenia & Libya/Egypt [from the west].
- in one or more classical sources Atlantis was in the "west/western" sea/ocean.
- Atlas mountians are in farthest western N Africa not Spain/Europe.
- there are no large enough sunken landmasses in the Indian ocean.
Pacific is ruled-out because:
- intervening continents/oceans.
- traditionally Atlantis was "in the Atlantic".
- Pacific is islands not continent. Orthodox science claims no sunken large landmass in Pacific (except the likes of 'Zealandia' and seamounts).
Though the Atlantic &/or "real ocean" of the Account may be either/both sides of Atlantis/America.
(South) Atlantic fits:
- traditionally Atlantis was "in the Atlantic".
- South America matches Atlantis including in being in the Atlantic.
- Kirchir's spurious map shows Atlantis in the Atlantic (and his Atlantis is very much like S America).
- Atlas mountians are in farthest western N Africa not Spain/Europe.
- although there are no large enough sunken landmasses in the Atlantic, that is no counting continents that were effected by continental shift or crust displacement.
Except that the Atlantic &/or "real ocean" can be either/both sides of Atlantis/America.
Ships and seafaring
# Seafaring/boats/ships/wrecks/ports evidences (and, the invasion/projection) [and, the world trade].
"For in those days the Atlantic was navigable." Timaeus 25a.
"... the sea in that area is to this day impassable to navigation...." Tim 25e (& Crit 109a).
Poseidon.
"... for there were still no ships or sailing in those days...." Critias 113e.
"many other islands in the ocean" Crit 114d.
"many imports" Crit 114e.
"harbours and dock" Crit 115c.
"... entrance to it large enough to admit the largest ships." Crit 115e.
["so making it possible to sail right up to the palace" Crit 115.]
"large enough to admit the passage of a single trireme" Crit 116a.
"hollow docks" 116d.
"there were dockyards full of triremes" Crit 117e.
["The Atlanteans were outstanding sailors...." Crit 117.]
"large harbour ... crowded with vast numbers of merchant ships from all quarters" Crit 118a.
"and 4 sailors as part of the complement of 1200 ships" Crit 119b.
seafaring (boats/ships)
- Peru: An ocean going ship of exotic design found while digging mines on Peruvian coasts.
Peruvians had "sea-worthy rafts" (ref Readers Digest 'Vanished Civs').
Reed boats might not leave lasting traces? The reed boats or "totora horses" of the Urus/Uros of Titicaca are not so "daft" as people assert. Heyerdahl based his boat on reed boat. The Titicaca reed boats are seemingly perhaps similar to Fasold's "Noah's Ark". Chimu (Chan chan) pottery figure of "reed boat" titled "life on the ocean wave" (ref Readers Digest 'Vanished Civs')? Dragon-boat racing Puno?
The legend of Naymlap tells of the arrival of a great fleet of balsa-reed boats (Chimu/Mochica, refs Sitchin, Pears).
The raft of Taycanamo myth?
- South America:
10 ships Paraiba inscription (refs Kolosimo)?
- Atlantic: Thor Heyerdahl.
- Phaeacia: the Phaeacians had the fastest ships, clippers that carry them across far-flung seas (Odyssey 7).
- Celts/British: "Caesar records that the greatest naval engagment he ever undertook was against the Celts of Gaul & Britain. In his De Bello Gallico he writes of a combined Celtic & British fleet of 220 ships .... Caesar describes the ships as deep-water vessels able to traverse the oceans, 'upon the vast open sea', towering above the Roman ships." [London is described as a great port owning some 700 vessels in 359 ad?] The ship of Manannan.
Water/ship burial (Arthur, Sutton Hoo, Snape)?
- Norse/Germanic: Skidbladnir the ship of Freyr. Noatun the place of ships. Swan & dragon ships of Vikings. Naglfar "nail ship"?
High-prowed ships in Bohuslan rock carvings (which also show concentric circles).
"giraffe on a ship"/"camel on ship" (bronze age rock scribings, sw Sweden, Spanuth)? "ships from Scandinavian rock scribings of the Bronze age" (Spanuth/Reinerth)?
- Italy: A large prehistoric ship found in 16th cent.
- Crete: boat in "epiphany" seal (Minoan)?
- Egypt: the Great Pyramid boat pit/s. "It is recorded that ancient Egyptian [2nd dyn &/or 26th dyn] navigators circumnavigated Africa, some of their vessels were 250 ft long."
The 'Sea Peoples' had "a great fleet of sailed-ships with arching prows at each end, in the shape of bird-heads.... ... the sailed ships of the Peleset were overwhelmed by the slave-oared Egyptian river craft...."
predynastic boat/ship pictures/drawings [with either drogue stones or oars] (Gebelein/Naqada, ref F Raffaele)? Naqada 2 pot(tery) "ship theme"?
Ra's boat Uaa Nu cubits 7? Menes connected with ark (ref wikipedia 'Menes')?
- Bible: Noah's Ark.
The meanings & descriptions/details of Tarshish (&) Kittim in the bible connect with the Americas, Atlantis, and heliolithic (which included Peru). Tarshish & Kittim are prominently associated with ships/fleet/navy.
- Iran: 1200 ships Persians in classical times.
- Indus: Hrozny gave pictures/descriptions of seals/etc that had 2 steps/feet & a boat/ship [which seemed to me maybe connect with Atlantis/Americs?]
- Nepal: serpent raft?
- West Irian pictograph ca 232 bc depicts ship with inscription "this is the great waka/canoe of Rata" [or "this is the Nuwi/Noah ark, Ararat"?]
- Australia: "Phoenician type ship" depicted in Hawkesbury river rock carving.
[- Polynesia: fleet of 10 canoes.]
- North America: An ancient ship found deep in ice in Alaska at the turn of the century. Boats/ships in the Peterborough inscriptions, &/or ships in Ontario petroglyphs.
- Berlitz gives picture and caption "Prehistoric and early representations of sacred ships, or 'sun boats,' found in widely separated areas such as Egypt, Sumeria, California, Spain, and Sweden."
- alledged lack of evidence ("arguing negatives") is not dis/proof.
seafaring (ports):
- "sea ports in the Andes" (refs include Velikovsky, Berlitz).
seafaring:
- There was a find of earliest evidence of seafaring in Crete a year or two ago now.
- The ancient Phoenicians/Carthaginians were great seafarers.
- Greek: Odyssey. Argonauts. Thalassocracies.
- Australia: the "first sea-farers" theory.
- Polynesia (the neighbouring region to the continent of South America): the (Malayo-)Polynesians/Maoris were great seafarers who reached Hawaii, Easter Island, NZ [and Madagascar?]
- the Phaeacians were the best sailors, Poseidon made them a sailor folk (Odyssey 7).
- the Vikings were great seafarers.
- The "maps of the ancient sea-kings" like the Piri Reis map (ref Charles Hapgood).
- the Popul Vuh says "the 1st race ... examined the 4 corners & round circles of the Earth / the horizon & the 4 points of the firmanent".
- "... the navigation of the world, esp for remote voyages, was greater than at this day. Do not think with yourselves that i know not how much it is increased with you within these 6 score years ... I say, greater than now. ... we lost our traffic with the Americas ... navigation did everywhere greatly decay, and esp far voyages."" (Francis Bacon, 1627.)
- "sea power came before land power" (ref Geopolitics of Haushofer/Mackinder).
- the "candelabra" at Paracas seemingly may be a marker for sailors?
- The ancient version of the Panama canal at Tehuantepec (ref SC Compton 'Exodus Lost')?
(- Tiahuanaco/Peru had "extensive trade routes".)
- "the seas were highways not barriers".
seafaring (distance/duration)
- if there was a continental shift then the Atlantic could have been anywhere up to half the current width/distance/duration.
- a couple/few Classical sources saying Atlantis was # of days sail from Africa/Europe is similar to modern Atlantic crossing records.
seafaring (preColumbian (trans)Atlantic contacts)
- a number of sources give impressive evidences of ancient transAtlantic contacts, especially Pierre Honore, Nigel Davies, Barry Fell, Donald MacKenzie, Z Sitchin ('Lost Realms'). Some of them like MacKenzie show that they can not be independent similar developments, and that some like the winged disk are as unlikely as the Union Jack to be invented independently.
- the Archaic Maritime culture of North America is considered to be/have evidence of trans-Atlantic contacts.
- in the Americas it is said that the oldest finds are south and east (ref SC Compton 'Exodus Lost').
- the close similarities between Folsom/Clovis and Solutrean.
- orthodox historians assert that Americans arrived via Beringia, but the majority of Amerind traditions say they came from east over sea/water (ref Berlitz).
- there was once a statue of a man on horse pointing west & associated with Quechua [Inca] name/word cati/cates "this way" in the Azores.
- the Heliolithic (Megalithic) culture-complex was all around the world including Peru (ref HG Wells).
- the Palaeolithic cultures of western Europe seemingly first arrived on the Atlantic seaboard.
- Americas in shown on Carthaginian coins/map of ca 350.
- reed boats (Titicaca) ~ reed boats (Tana/Nile/Egypt, Marsh Arabs/Persian Gulf).
- 3 pyramids Sipan ~ 3 pyramids Giza.
- Assyrian depictions of the Toakkari 'sea peoples' bearing south american fan palm (ref Fitzgerald-Lee 'Great Migration').
- Coc(o)a/chocolate/cocaine & tobacco/tobacco beetle/nicotine in 19th/21st dyn burial/mummies.
The Invasion/projection (distance/duration).
Some arch-critics object that the distance is to far for Atlantis to have been able to have "projected" their power from Peru across America, Atlantic & Mediterranean/Europe/'Libya' to Egypt.
The Atlantis Account seems to imply that the invasion took place over a lot of time and space (through Europe/Libya/Asia).
The Account and the biblical meaning of Kittim clearly say/imply "invaders".
The large sphere is too much for one small island/city to control (but not for a large island/continent to control).
Maybe the story of Hercules vs Antaeus is related?
World trade/commerce:
The Wessex period had extensive trade. The meaning of Meshech in the bible also implies trade/commerce [and Meshech may match the Wessex period].
Tiahuanaco/Peru had "extensive trade routes".
The Invasion.
# the Invasion, and the War & Defeat.
[Note that we haven't yet finished some of the 4 sections of this chapter yet. We may not be able to finish them due to situation & condition (much to the enemies suiting). Nevertheless, rest assured that there is plenty here and elsewhere of ours and/or of others to show that the arch-critics scepticism on this one projection/invasion contention is not any "strongest objection against" Atlantic/American as they make-out.]
Arch-critics/arch-sceptics refuse to accept all our stark evidences unless we say/show "why the Atlanteans/Peruvians invaded the East Mediterranean", and unless we show how they invaded including all the invaded neighbours in between Peru/Atlantis and the eastern Mediterranean, and unless we show "why large Atlantis beaten by small Athens".
"who-ruled/had-rule-over the whole island and several/many other( island)s" Timaeus 25b.
"against the whole of Europe & Asia" / "attack the cities of Europe & Asia" Timaeus 25a.
"they subjected the parts of Libya with the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia" / "within the strait, Libya up to the borders of Egypt and Europe as far as Tyrrhenia" / "from next Libya until Egypt" and "from Europe until Tyrrhenia" Timaeus 25b.
"this vast power thus gathered into one" / "this dynasty gathering its whole power together" Timaeus 25c.
"to subdue ... and the whole of the land which was within the straits" / "all the territory within the strait" Timaeus 25c.
"after having undergone the very extremity of danger" / "after running into direst peril" Timaeus 25d.
"all those who dwelt outside the pillars" / "all those who lived inside the pillars" Critias 108e.
"the islands of Atlantis" / "the kings of Atlantis" Critias 109a.
"extent-greater/larger than ... Libya & Asia" Critias 109a.
(Critias 109b.)
["the foreign cities over which they held sway. Crit 117a.]
"those parts of the world" Critias 120e.
[Critias 121c.]
These English versions of Atlantis Account verses seemingly contradict the critics vicious criticisms, assertions and dismissings against our thesis. Why don't they read the source and answer it &/or their own claims?
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# Why the Atlanteans/Americans/Peruvians invaded.
The Atlantis Account doesn't seem to say what the "pretext/reason" was for the Atlanteans invading (the 2nd part is incomplete, and the 3rd is missing), other than that they had become mixed, fallen and decadent, and arrogant, and that God was to "punish" them. Maybe it was just greed, ambition or megalomania, like "power corrupts" and "everybody wants to rule the world", and like modern globalist "corporatists"?
Atlantipedia lists a number of common reasons for migrations/invasions/expansionism/imperialism. These reasons include: shortage of resources, climate change, over population [living space], political upheaval.
The Atlantis Account mentions 2 types of catastrophe: fire and water/flood/deluge [and/or Phaethon and Atlantis sinking].
Scouring all of dynastic Egyptian history, the only major records that seem to possibly match the Atlantis Account are the ones relating to the Sea Peoples invasions of 19th & 20th dynasty, as Spanuth contended.
In the records about the Sea Peoples attacks it is also mentioned that their "islands are uprooted and arried away .... The might of Nun (the Ocean) broke forth and fell in a great wave upon their towns and villages." Also that the head of their cities was submerged.
This matches Atlantis "sinking", and matches either/both crust displacement and/or continental shift. We know that Peru was on the equator at one stage in pole shift maps.
According to the Account, the war was before (not after) the "sinking", and people say that there is an unknown small or big gap between the war and the sinking.
Although the Account doesn't specifically connect the Phaethon event with the Atlantis sinking event, Flem-Ath seems to have thought that they were connected (Phaethon ~ "change in path of sun" ~ pole shift ~ crust displacement [and "then beneath the sun" ~ Peru was once on the equator in some pole shift maps]), while Spanuth suggested Phaethon and "sinking" catastrophe/s effected Atlantis.
There is evidence for/of a Phaethon comet fire event. [Various suggested astronomical events of different modern theories include Halley's comet, Venus, Mars, Luna(r capture), exploded Planet X between Mars & Jupiter, "Nibiru"/Planet X beyond Pluto.]
Phaethon (Greek) ~ Sekhmet (Egyptian) ~ Anat (Phoenician/Canaanite).
Libya became a desert (and the Nile dried up). Libyan is first mentioned in Egyptian in time of Merneptah (19th dyn). [Just a note on the side: Possibly we might be able to substitute Aeria and Tritonis for "Libya and Nile". Djerid/"Tritonis" in Tunisia may be analogous to Titicaca in Peru?]
The Atlantis Account has been considered by Spanuth etc to match the Egyptian accounts about the Sea Peoples. In these accounts there is mentioned "Their forests and fields are burnt with fire." "The heat of him has burnt their countries." "The fire of Sekhmet has burnt the lands of the 9 bows/arcs." "As mighty fire was prepared before them." "They had before them a sea of flame."
There does seem a possible correspondence between sequences in and between sources:
fire -> water/flood (Atl Acct).
Phaethon -> Atlantis sinking deluge (Acct/Spanuth).
war -> sinking (Atl Acct).
fire -> flood/deluge (Amerind).
drought/famine/burning -> sinking (Eddas).
fire/burnt/heat -> ... (Medinet Habu).
The bible says the Philistines came from Caphtor at same time as Israelites exodus from Egypt.
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# The distance, how projected, and/or the invaded neighbours between Atlantis and Egypt/Greece.
Various critics (Tony of Atlantipedia, Historum forum posters, Desiree) adamantly assert that the distance is too great, and ask how Atlantis can project invasion from Peru, across America & Atlantic, and to east Mediterranean.
Tony of Atlantipedia asserts that in history countries first attack their neighbours.
These are valid questions, and we try to show that there are answers to this, but i just want to mention that they are wrong to dismiss all the stark evidences just because of a few remaining challenging things like this, and it is also a little bit unreasonible to expect me to have to review the histories of all the nations in between Peru and Greece/Egypt. That they consider this supposedly "one of the strongest arguments against Atlantic/American location" versus all the many strong evidences is bizarre. Now we will attempt to show evidences of invaded neighbours between Peru and Egypt, and/or show evidences of links between Peru/America and Atlantic/Mediterranean countries.
Contrary to sceptics assertive criticisms, the Atlantis Account and other sources says the Atlanteans were once unmixed with other men, remotest, distant point in Atlantic. So it is the stuck-up academic critics that have to explain themselves &/or that.
The Account says "invaders" (Tim 25d). The meaning and details of Kittim in the bible is also connected with "invaders" and seemingly with Atlantis/America. To me "invaders" fairly probably implies from somewhere significantly outside, similar to modern Alien invaders ideas.
If there was a continental shift then the Atlantic may have been anywhere upto half the current distance/width.
"Sea power came before land power" - Haushofer's/MacKinder's geopolitics.
The Atlantis Account seemingly implies that the invasion was over (all through) a certain amount of time and space. The Account says that Atlantis invaded upto Tyrrhenia and Libya/Egypt [and so "Atlantis" can also include all their sphere of dominion/control]. The western/central Mediterranean (Tyrrhenia & Libya) is neighours to the eastern Mediterranean (Greece & Egypt). The English versions of the Account say "had rule over the whole island ans several others", "against the whole of Europe & Asia", "this vast power thus gathered into one", "the whole of the land which is within the straits", "all those who dwelt/lived outside/inside the pillars" (which ever way around in/out & Athens/Atlantis are), "the kings/islands of Atlantis", and "extent-greater/larger than ... Libya & Asia" (which may imply extent of more lands than/beyond Libya & Asia).
Marcellus &/or Proclus said Atlantis was a large/great island that ruled over all the islands of the outer/Atlantic sea/ocean.
The claim of some that the most correct English rendering of the Greek is "from next Libya until Egypt" and "from Europe until Tyrrhenia" still doesn't prove or disprove anything against our location thesis or for their location thesis because this can still have various reasonible meanings/interpretations/understandings/applications. From Europe can be anywhere in or around Europe, and plenty of places fit this and other parts of the Account far better than Malta/Sicily/Italy. "Next Libya" can be any where around any/all of (North(-West)) Africa (including South America, Agadir, Atlas, Gades, Tartessos, and not necessarily/likely/just Malta). They also have not proven that this was the ultimate Atlantic base and not just the first landing/foothold in Europe/Africa.
Atlantis is South America not just Peru. The Account implies that their sphere covered much or all of the whole island? Who is "neighbour(s)" to (South) America? North/Central America on one side, and Africa and Europe on the other side of the Atlantic.
North America is centred futher west than South America (and Africa sticks out further than Spain/Europe), so South America is between North America and the Old World like Atlantis is in Kirchir's spurious map (whether or not the opposite continent of the Atlantis Account is North America or other).
West Africa has links with America/Atlantis. "A tribe in Guinea which is located on the Atlantic coast of Africa performs a ceremony where they reenact an ancient tradition that white men came down from the sky (flight) and from an island that no longer exists [Atlantis? pre-Flood?] in very ancient times, to administer laws and justice. Olokun is similar to Poseidon & Viracocha. Shango's palace of brass is similar to Atlantis city. We already showed that "Amma circumcised the earth goddess, whose clitoris was an anthill" seems similar to Clito & Akapana. Unusual alloys of Africa similar to unusual alloys of America. [Did the Dogon get the Sirius knowledge from Atlas/Andes?]
There are possible analogies between North Africa (Morocco to Tunisia/Libya) and Peru. The venerated Atlas mountains at analogous to the Andes. Lake Djerid/Tritonis may be analogous to Titicaca. North Africa had 2 crops a year like Peru even more positively did. Bolton says from Spanuth about sun symbols and spirals and rayed crowns depictions of North Africa and Northern Europe [which recall sun of Peru and circles of Atlantis/Tiahuanaco]?
The Canary islands have clear evidences that they were either part of the territory conquered by Atlantis or were survivors from afterwards. They "worshipped a god ... who holds the heaven...." They "had the institution of double kingship"; their temple was decorated with red, white & black stones..."; and they had "pictures of horses and chariots" (ref Spanuth).
In Mayan the first world was inhabited by builders of great ruined cities, and in the second world lived the offenders. These "offenders" might be linked with Atlanteans? The Toltec statues have rayed/feathered crowns which are abit like rayed/feathered crowns of the Sea Peoples (who seem to be linked with Atlantis & America). We have suggested that Tehuantepec might have served as an ancient Panama canal (esp since the Quechua "this way" statue in Azores is said to have pointed west). "San Lorenzo" is supposed to have had a concentric circles layout like Atlantis/Tiahuanaco. Posnansky suggested that the Aztlan of the Aztecs was Tiahuanaco.
In South America, the Peruvian sphere of influence seems to have extended from Tiahuanaco (Bolivia) as far as Quito (Ecuador).
South America is described as a watery continent, and the Amazon crosses through much of the continent. Jim Allen and others give evidence of connections between Peru/Bolivia and regions of the Amazon such as similar lake and concentric circles city sites, similar agriculture system, etc.
The Megalithic (Heliolithic) culture covered precisely the area of Europe and Africa that the Atlantis Account says the Atlanteans did. The Heliolithic (Megalithic) culture was in many places around the world including Peru, matching what we would expect of such a large sphere of influence as Atlantis/America. In the bible the meanings of Tarshish & Kittim seemingly connect with America, Atlanteans, oreichalc, megalithic/heliolithic.
Frank Joseph gave evidence of links between Tierra Dentro (in Columbia) and Malta sites.
There was once a statue of a man on horse pointing west and associated with the word cates/cati "this way" (*Quechua*) in the Azores.
We already suggested that the 2 "Seven Cities" lakes of Azores seem analogous to the 2 parts of lake Titicaca.
Orthodox scholars say they prefer an eastern Mediterranean origin of the Sea Peoples, yet they admit they don't know where the Sea Peoples came from, and yet they mention evidence of links with Sardinia. Spanuth gives evidences of western and northern origins. (He claims the starting point can be traced back to Heligoland area, by the tracks of megaliths, flange-hilt swords and amber, etc.)
There are pictures in Sardinia that are said to have soldiers similar to depictions of the Sea Peoples.
Egyptian accounts of Sea Peoples say a great fleet of sailed-ships with arching prows at each end, in the shape of bird-heads, "from the ends of the world/earth", "great darkness", "9th bow/arc", "the isles and mainland of the outer circle of water".
It is claimed that there are Assyrian depictions of the Toakkari (of the) Sea Peoples bearing the South America fan palm.
Sea Peoples were 19th & 20th dyn. Cocaine and tobacco was found in 19th & 21st dyn mummies.
Our tentative theory is that Heligoland (Caphtor?) was the or one of the Atlanteans / Sea Peoples main first bases in Europe from which they later further invaded as far as the eastern Mediterranean.
One suggested meaning of Caphtor is "knob" which may connect with Heligoland. The Peleset of the Sea Peoples who have been tentatively linked with the Philistines (who came from Caphtor(im)) may possibly be linked with the Frisians. In map of world haplogroups the area around Heligoland is interesting.
The records seemingly/maybe suggest two groups: from next Libya & from Europe, Libyans and (?North) Sea Peoples, North and Sea Peoples, Vanir & Aesir?
Atlantis may be linked with either/both Freyr and the Vanir (SB Cox) and/or Asgard and the Aesir (J Spanuth). In the layout "Midgard - Asgard - Jotunheim" (ref Anderson/Andersen), Asgard in the middle may link with Atlantis/America?
The Bohuslan pictures certainly have Atlantean connections.
In an earlier version of our Atlantis paper we showed possible evidences of Atlantean visits to the UK. These include:
- Stonehenge (5x2, concentric circles, damaged on south-west side). [There is archaeological evidence of links of Stonehenge/Wessex period with Mycenaean and Egyptian. Wessex period has evidences of international-like trade.]
- dolmens recall Atlas pillar motif?
- ######## vulva & phallus recalls Clito & Poseidon.
There are clear evidences of contacts between Peru/Americas and Mediterranean. The 3 pyramids of Sipan are seemingly analogous to the 3 pyramids of Giza.
Summary charts of invasion stages scenarios:
Bolivia/Peru -> Colombia (Tierra Dentro) -> Orinoco / Magdalena / Panama? / Tehuantepec -> Azores &/or transpolar -> Heligoland/Bohuslan &/or Tartessos/Gades -> upto west Mediterranean (Sardinia) & central Mediterranean (Tyrrhenia, Malta & Libya) -> east Mediterranean (Greece, Asia Minor, Palestine, & Egypt).
Bolivia/Peru -> Amazon/Brazil -> W Africa (Guinea) -> N Africa (Agadir/Atlas/Djerid/Libya) -> Egypt.
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#. Why was large Atlantis defeated by small Athens?
Contrary to peoples claims, the Atlantis Account clearly implies that Atlantis was a large island (see the section/chapter on "large or small island"). So i don't see how they can be so assertive and why we should have to be so defensive.
Why was Atlantis defeated by Athens? Possible reasons include:
- Atlanteans had been effected by disasters/catastrophes. The story of Hercules defeating Antaeus by raising him in the air might be also connected with Andes raised up.
- The great distance. Atlantis was over-reached.
- Egyptian records show some reasons why the Sea Peoples were overcome by Egyptians.
The Account says "after having undergone the very extremity of danger".
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#. The War.
People demand to know any other versions of the war outside of Plato or they reject all our stark evidences. Here is the start of a list of some maybe-possible extra-Platonic versions.
coyote vs kodoyanpe (Maidu)?
ioskeha vs tawiscara (Huron)?
sons of light vs giants deprived of light (Peruvian)?
Aesir/Vanir vs Vanir/Aesir?
Hercules vs Albion?
Eusebius vs Machimos (Theopompus)??
Hercules vs Antaeus (Classical)?
Athens vs Atlantis ("Plato")
Shu vs Antwey?
Egypt vs Sea Peoples (Medinet Habu)?
Egypt vs enemies ('Exodus')?
Peru mythology has 5 ages. The 1st was the age of Viracocha when the gods ruled; the 2nd was an age of giants, the worshippers of Viracocha; third came the age of the first men, who existed on a very primative level; fourth was that of the auca runa "warriors".... Compare the Mayan which we already mentioned above: the first world was inhabited by builders of great ruined cities, and in the second world lived the offenders.
Real or made-up?
#. True or Lie?
It seems that orthodox academics have it that anyone should first determine/decide whether a source like the Atlantis Account is true or is not true. The problem with this is that how can they really determine if it is true or not just from textual criticism theories without looking to see if there is any evidence/matches in the world/history (and when they ignore/reject/dismiss the stark evidences we have found and shown)? They themselves are right that "if you make the wrong decision/premise (of true or not)" it will be wrong/bad.
We say rather that any genuine scholar/scientist would/should objectively look to see if there is (or is not) evidence/proof that Atlantis existed (or not) (and should consider any such stark evidences given).
Orthodox academics / critics / sceptics / esoter(ic)ists have not proven (esp not to the same highest maximum "standards" that they demand of us) that the Atlantis Account [and/or "Nennius", Herodotus, Bible, etc] is not true.
Also/alternatively, it often seems that a/the reason critics/sceptics claim texts are not true is really because they can not find match in the world/history within their own mis-assumptions (eg "no trace of Joseph/Moses in Egyptian history" because their chronology/dating was wrong).
An example survey of a *** authorities in Berlitz's book has 97 authorities believe Atlantis in Atlantic, 46 it never existed, 21 in Americas, 15 in North Africa, etc. That is 97+21(+) versus 46.
The Atlantis Account itself says that the story is good because it is true history and not just a fictional Platonic ideal utopia. [I do not agree the other parts of Plato's book/s is integral part of the Atlantis Account as some assert.]
It also says that the story came from Egyptian records / Sonchis / Solon not from "Plato". [According to the Account, the story's spoken & *written* transmission went in this order:
events -> heiroglyphs -> sonchis -> solon* -> [critiaselder/dropidas] -> critiasyounger -> critiasyounger,hermocrates -> critiasyounger,hermocrates,socrates*,timaeus -> plato* -> aristotle.]
(Plato was the first one to use mythology for fictional, and legend for true story.*)
There were 2 or 3 witnesses, and the witnesses are more high profile people than any of us.
Aristotle contradictingly on one hand says Plato "sank" Atlantis, and on the other hand mentions the island/land Antilla more or less similar to Atlantis.
A dozen or more post-Platonic classical sources all seem to believe the veracity of Atlantis (Account).
[People on one forum claim that the account is unreliable because "Plato was a 5 year old at the discussion". No one else in any sources etc i have ever seen or heard makes such claims even, and it contradicts the Account. Even if it were so it would not necessarily be an insurmountable impossibilty....]
The Account gives lots of detailed descriptions as if actual eye-witness.
Certain things in the Account are remarkably like true modern geopolitical views.
The spring at Athens was found just like the Atlantis Account says. (Though Aspin says traces of the spring may have been around/known then.)
Atlantis itself has now been found, with literal matches for most all the details of the Atlantis Account. (There is no longer "no one site/location matches all the details of the Account".)
[Critics often use the line "you've seemingly not convinced anyone here". Some other great researchers also agreed with our Peru/Bolivia/Andes/South America location (including Posnansky, J Allen, Antelo).]
There are also have been found and are continually being found (more and more) pre-Platonic references that match details of the Atlantis Account. See the list in our references section (when we have finished re-writing it). But to prepeat a few:
- The Inca picture from the Coricancha depicts half a dozen to a dozen details/things of the Atlantis Account (including the concentric circles city, the hill/Clito (or pillar/s?), the sea, the canal, the cliff/s, Poseidon & Clito (or Clito's parents or twins), the 2 crops a year, the large rectangular plain & surrounding ditch & criss-crossing channels. (Though orthodox academics denied it claiming the things are rather just other [dubious] common mythological nonsense.)
- The meanings of Tarshish (&) Kittim in bible certainly seem to relate to Americas, Atlantis, oreichalc, heliolithic.
- The concentric circles in various places around world (like ring & cup marks of Bohuslan) confirm Atlantis existence.
- The historical Sea Peoples in the Medinet Habu inscriptions may be related (though that maybe abit later).
- The Heliolithic culture was world-wide including Peru.
- Extensive trade/commerce was known in the Wessex period.
- Herodotus mentions the Atlantic between after Solon & before Plato.
- Hercules vs Antaeus?
- Shu vs Antwey.
- The "enemies" of Egypt in 'Exodus'.
- Shoal of Sesostris.
- 900 years Moeris.
- Menes tomb label has concnetric rings city.
In modern times it has been remarked a few times how oral memories/traditions/myths have been found to be/have amazing/accurate truth.*
Other similar sources/texts that academics/critics/sceptics similarily claimed were just/all/mostly "myth"/unreliable have been shown to not be. Joseph and Moses have been found in Egyptian. "(King) Arthur's" 12/9 battles sites have been found to match the Saxon Shore. We have written abit/bits showing evidences we found that vindicate Herodotus (who has variously been called the father of lies and the father of history by different sides). They say they found Lijien, and Palibothra? Schlieman found Troy (though this site is now disputed by some &/or some say it is only the site not the war that found).
Orthodox academic "textual criticism" has some worth, but we have found/shown that it can be/is sometimes/somewhat flawed. E.g. we found strong evidence/proof that nullified all their "12 battles of Arthur composed from a few various different sources" theories of O***** / P Graham / etc. Even when we found such proof of match in world/history the academics still incredibly just assert all their "textual criticism" / "hybristic" / "evolved" theories and dismiss all the/our evidences/matches/proofs.
I myself have always tried to be very careful to check/test sources/evidences/prejudices/beliefs and as objective as possible, and to seek the truth not "fantasy".
Critics should also note that strangely some people on one hand insist on a totally "literal" 9000 years date, while on the other hand they hold that the geographical details of Atlantis (the plain, the sea, the city, etc) may be a composite (of) more-than-one-place(s) and not all literally one island.
Critics may also think we are contradictory/confusing in having literal matches for all the details of the Account, but that the 9000 years date is not totally "literal" truth (though the date does have a "literally" true code/cipher/lie match).
[Some state disbelief that Atlantis story could be accurately preserved over 9000 years, but we and others show that the 9000 years is not literal 9000 yrs.]
"The truth is stranger than fiction".
Orthodox academics often evade evidences using unfair/untrue "discredited/unreliable" character-assasination dirty tactics.
Whatever things i am wrong about don't disprove the things i am right about.
* [Sources seemingly imply that mythos is oral, and legend is recorded oral?] Many scholars believe that myths/mythology has at least a grain of historical/etc truth. Ancients didn't have separate subjects like we have. Euhemerus believed/claimed all myth was true (pre-)history. Donnelly and others point-out that the gods [spoke, ate, killed/died, wore clothes, etc].
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Quality or quantity?
Orthodox academics/sceptics are wrong to claim that "Atlantis can be found anywhere/all over the world" and/or that "the quantity of theories" dis/proves / dismisses our one theory. Only our location matches all the details of the Account without bending, the others don't. (These details include the large size island, the direction, the distance, the remains of city/civilisation, elephants, date, the sea, the plain, the "sinking", etc.)
The Opposite Continent.
# the Opposite Continent.
[We haven't finished this section yet. This is just a provisional posting of what we have redone so far, since we may not be able to do anymore work on this whole Atlantis thesis paper due to our situation and condition (much to the suiting/liking of our orthodox academic enemies).]
Where was the opposite continent of the Account? Lets go through and narrow down where is or is not ruled out.
ruled-out:
Europe:
Nikas claims the opposite continent is Europe as it is opposite Africa (Egypt).
A paper on Scheria/Phaeacia says that Calabria is locally called "the continent". Philo of Alexandria mentioned "the continent of Italy".
Europe is ruled out because:
The opposite continent surrounds the real ocean, Europe does absolutely positively does not.
"The continent" of Italy/Calabria is maybe analgous to America/Atlantis or America/Opposite Continent?
Tony of Atlantipedia mis-uses Herodotus' saying that his contemporaries were wrong that the 3 parts Old World was the Whole world as supposed evidence that the Greeks known World was only the 3 part Old World.
Tony claims that the Greeks before Herodotus only considered 2 landmasses "continent(s)" - Europe and Asia (with Libya sometimes considered part of Asia).
One problem with this "rational explanation" typical of orthodox evolutionist academia is that he is assuming/asserting that the Atlantis Account was just / partly made-up by the Greeks, and that the Account is limited to post-Mycenaean Greeks knowledge.
Western Asia is ruled out because:
It must be west not east (ref Atlantis Acct, Tony of Atlantipedia)
South America:
Atlantis city, sea, plain, and large island-continent certainly matches Tiahuanaco, Titicaca, Altiplano, and South America, so the opposite continent doesn't seem likely to be South America. (Though the mainland in the accounts about the Sea Peoples could possibly be America/Opposite Continent?)
Northern unity of continents:
Flem-Ath claimed the opposite continent is the northern unity of continents as viewed from Antarctic centred projection.
The Account seems to imply that the Opposite Continent was a separate landmass to the Old World and to Atlantis, and that there is a west-east order/route going:
Opp Cont - isls - Atlantis - Liby/Eur/Asia.
Not ruled out:
Atlantis is certainly South America. The Opposite continent most likely can only be any one or more of either North America, east Asia, Australia, Antarctica. Any one or more of these surround the Pacific Ocean.
North America could be:
Opposite [or underworld] to the eastern hemisphere/old world is the western hemisphere/new world.
"Parts of the opposite continent" coulod fit North America which was half covered in ice then.
Kirchir's spurious map shows Atlantis in the Atlantic between the Old World and one of the Americas, which seems to imply that Atlantis was in Atlantic and the opposite continent is America/s. However his map seems to us to imply that Atlantis was one of the Americas closer to the Old World than the other of the Americas. His Atlantis is very much like South America. North America is centred further west than South America (and Africa sticks out more than Spain/Europe), which fits Atlantis/South America in between (North) America and Africa.
(East Asia - Beringia -) North America can be seen as surrounding the Pacific Ocean, &/or the Atlantic Ocean. (Some judeao-christian sources link Gihon with Atlantic/Oceanus [and/or Havilah with Americas?])
The Opposite Continent might match Utgard of Norse, and Utgard might match North America? (Though alternatively Bifrost of Asgard might match Beringia?)
East Asia could be (part of) the Opposite Continent:
Jim Allen wrote that the opposite continent is Asia.
(Australia -) East Asia (- North America) surrounds/encompasses the Pacific Ocean. (The water hemisphere is centred on the Pacific.)
Hrozny gave pictures from Indus Seals &/or other sources of 2 steeps/feet and a boat.
The opposite continent is opposite the Old World &/or Atlantis. East Asia is opposite to Atlantis/America, &/or opposite to western (Eur(o)-)Asia.
Australia:
(North America - East Asia -) Australia can be seen as surrounding Pacific.
The opposite continent was opposite to Atlantis &/or to Old World. Australia can be seen as opposite to America/Atlantis (& Old World).
"Parts of the opposite continent" could fit Australia.
Continental "drift" sources say Australia was at one stage joined with Antarctica as one contient.
Antarctica could be:
"Parts of the opposite continent" coulod fit Antarctica if it was part covered in ice then.
opposite to the arctic/northern hemisphere is the antarctic/southern hemisphere. Opposite [or underworld] to the north-east quadrant is the south-west quandrant (lesser Antarctica).
Antarctica surrounds the world ocean in projection centred on north pole.
The 3 large islands of Zeus/Ammon, Poseidon/Atlantis, Hades/Pluto in western sea/ocean could be North America, South America, Antarctica.
References
Some of my remembered/recorded Atlantis refs:
Plato/Critias/Timaeus/Solon/Sonchis; Berlitz; Spanuth ('Atlantis of the North'); Flem-Ath; Nexus magazine; G Hancock; Fasold ('Discovery of Noah's Ark'); Tony 'Atlantipedia'; Sykes; Jim Allen ('Atlantis in Bolivia'); Prime TV; Wikipedia; Lee trans; Alford, kirchir; Lamb trans; Jowett trans; Waterfield trans; C(h)amp; Scott-Eliot; Graham / arcus / theelf; Tomas; Chadderton ('Time Detectives'); 'Pears Cyclopedia'; Zangger; Mavor; Donnelly ('Atlantis Antediluvian World'); P James; AC Doyle; Jules Verne; A Nataf; Zanne; D Rohl; P Kolosimo ('Timeless Earth'); HS Bellamy ('Atlantis Myth'); HG Wells; David Hatcher-Childress; Bolton ('Germanic Atlantis'); Incendium ('Tears of the Lady' in 'Key of Alocer'); Stan Deyo; J Nienhuis ('Genesis Veracity'); A Santos; Sarmast; E Cayce; Bacon; 'Stargate Atlantis'; me ('Mythos Atlantis - Historia Pangaea').
Some of our major Tiahuanaco/Titicaca/Peru/Bolivia/Andes/South America refs:
Ivar Lissner; Z Sitchin 'Lost Realms'; A Alford; D Fasold; Posnansky; E v Daniken; Wikipedia; Jim Allen; C Berlitz; Atlantipedia; Velikovsky; Readers Digest 'Vanished Civilisations'; E Sykes; Flem-Ath; Hancock; Pears; Larousse World Mythology; Fitzgerald-Lee ('Great Migration').
Others who have placed Atlantis wholly or partly in Peru/Bolivia/Andes/South Atlantic include:
Jim Allen, atlantisrevealed, me, Mattievich, J Bailey, Donneley, Siebert, Dav Fasold, Berlitz, Posnan, Dav Antelo, Weidner & Bridges, Frank Joseph, M Ozorio, Zarate, Zanne, Bolton, Kirchir.
List of many of the main/major Atlantis location theories:
North America: {'Walter Alter'/thunderbolts?, Petersen.}
USA/America: {"Hermocrates", Bacon, [Waddell?].}
Sargasso: {Spence.}
Bermuda triangle: {Weinzweig/Zalitzki.}
Bahamas/Bimini/Andros: {Cayce, Greg Little, Andrews? Greer, Jongbloed, Hanson.}
Cuba/Caribbean: {Frey, A Collins, Desiree.}
Mexico: {Zapp/Erikson, Gene Matlock, Kolb, Winters.}
[Amatitlan/Guatemala/costa rica: {a lay "amateur" source.}]
America: {Bacon, LA Waddell?, Gardiner, Dietrich, Hornius, Prutz, Thoron, Garimberto, Ramusio.}
South America: {me, Jim Allen, Mattievich, Desiree (partly), Ed Alex, T Morrison.}
Eldorado/Manoa/[Parima?]: {Damo B.}
Venezuela: {a Venezuelan scholar.}
Colombia: {Frank Joseph.}
Andes/Peru/Bolivia: {Allen, atlantisrevealed, me, Mattievich, Weidner & Bridges, J Bailey, Donneley, Siebert, Dav Fasold, Dav Antelo, Zarate, Frank Joseph, M Ozorio.}
Entre Rios: {Fisher.}
Antarctica: {Flem-Ath, Hancock, G & R, Collins initially.}
South Atlantic: {Bolton.}
Atlantic/Azores: {Donnelly, Bellamy, Kirchir, Bramwell, Bory de St Vincent, Kampanakis, Theosophical/Scott-Eliot, Doyle, Verne, 97 out of 270 authorities.}
Madeira: {Voltaire?}
Nigeria: {Frobenius.}
UK/Britain/south England: {EJ Meester, Nicholls, Penant.}
Heligoland/NorthSea: {Spanuth, Bolton, Incendium, lost "Stonehenge map to" source, S Tender, Baucum, Gervis, Hogbom.}
Sweden/Scandinavia: {Rudbeck, Bureus.}
Spain/Tartessos/Andalusia/Catalonia: {Nienhuis, Jessen, Wishaw, Hennig, Schulten, Dr Kuhne, Sora, Papmarinopoulos, Hepke, Wickboldt, Mariana, Salas, Verdaquer, Knorosov.}
Sahara: {Godron.}
Morocco/Algeria/Atlas: {Berlioux, Borchard, Roux.}
Tunisia/Tritonis/Gabes: {Hermann, Butavand, Jolleaud.}
Malta: {Nikas, Mifsud/Ventura.}
Albania/Illyria: {a lost web/net page source, Zinelli.}
[Attica/Athens: {Latreille?}]
Thera/Santorini/Stronghyle: {Mavor, Marinatos, Galanopoulos, Philips, Figuier.}
/ Crete/"Keftiou": {Menzies, Lebeau, Rehork, Eichner.}
Atalante: {C(h)amp/Ley.}
Thracia: {"Thracian Atlantis" source.}
Troy: {Zangger, Schliemann?, Brady.}
Tantalis: {P James.}
Cyprus: {Sarmast, Wilson.}
Egypt: {Aboulfotouh, NR James.}
Israel: {de Serres, Manuschevich, Vossius, Fabricius, Baer, E Urenius, Olivier, Bonard.}
Ubar/Adites/City of Brass: {Deyo.}
Persia/Iran: {Hunt.}
Dwarka: {Historum forum posters.}
equidistant from Iraq & Egypt: {Hancock.}
Maldives/Laccadives: {Hancock (briefly/casual).}
[Turan: {Jantsang?}]
Indonesia/Sundaland: {Santos, Prasannan.}
Australia: {"none" but "one", Gilroy, Pye?, Boysen.}
"hybristic": {KA Morgan.}
prophecy: {"Hermocrates".}
preFlood/antediluvian world: {Donnelly, Fasold.}
centre of the earth/Agartha: {Verne.}
planet x: {Alford.}
"lifted off": {Tsoukalos.}
an alien planet/star system: {'Star Gate Atlantis'.}
lie/fiction/myth/metaphysical: {KA Morgan, Alford, C(h)amp, Nataf, 46 out of 270 authorities.}
Pre-Platonic and Classical references to Atlantis island/war/sinking:
[This is just a most extreme briefest restart and is not anywhere near finished yet.]
Albion son of Neptune vs Hercules?
Antaeus vs Hercules?
Atlantis vs Athens?
Antwey vs Shu?
sea peoples vs Egypt?
enemies vs Egypt ('Exodus')?
Yamm vs Baal?
We haven't yet (re-)written an answer rebutting/refuting orthodox academics, sceptics and arch-critics who assert that they are all "proper scholarship/science/professionals/reliable"/etc and that others are "lunatic/fringe/pseudo/unreliable/sensationalist"/etc.
Errata, and Addenda
Errata.
I made a mistake as this website maker is too time consuming and difficult to edit pages and so many sections. I should have posted it somewhere that is quicker and easier to post and edit. So a list of corrections in sections that i have not been able to edit. (No offense to the host. It isn't too bad/slow, just is a little bit of a hastle. I only have dialup which maybe part of the reason.)
I may not be able to finish any of the unfinished sections or re-write any of the not yet re-written sections from our previous versions.
Title:
Our thesis/paper/booklet title is 'Mythos Atlantis - Historia Pangaea' or 'Atlantis Tiahuanaco.
"Part 1" since i haven't added the rest of the sections/chapters.
Introduction:
I should have also put in a bit on: "People often criticise us for supposed or semi-true "repetition". This is not entirely true or fair. There is no easy way to organise theses of ours which have so much information / so many evidences and interconnections in them. Other books have repetition in them and I don't see people attacking them for repetition. There is nothing wrong with repeating true things if/when people keep ignoring/dismissing/denying them. Sometimes it is necessary to try find different ways of saying the same thing in order to find what way people understand."
sections/chapters:
Re the "#"s, I didn't number the chapters because haven't finished rewriting & readding all the many chapters.)
the Plain:
i missed out the link for the Coricancha picture ("See picture at:")
2 crops a year:
Aaru in Egyptian had wheat 5 cubits high and barley 7 cubits high (and Amenti/Urani may match Atlantis / America).
Tony of Atlantipedia gives some other examples of 2 crops a year in North Africa (he missed out that modern Israel has been called the breadbasket of Europe), but those are just analogous as they don't fit all the other details of the Atlantis Account (size, distance, direction, highest, etc). Not sure if Joseph 7 years plenty is similar too? I have to check but i think Java was an island of grain.
Peru was on the equator in some pole shift maps, which might possibly connect with summer & winter??
South or North:
In the list of North evidences the point 2nd from the end should have read "North America is centred further west than South America."
Pillars chapter:
I missed out an "is" in the sentence "What the actual interpretation/application/conclusion of this translation is is still difficult/uncertain."
I have added "Necho's fleet circumnavigated Africa in ca 600 bc." to the bit "What where the limits of the Egyptian/Greek/Phoenician world in time of Solon/Plato?"
The 3rd note should read "Why the hell don't they...." And "Don't give me the...."
Sea or ocean:
i forgot to fill in the number "2000 parasangs wide" (and i made mistake of parsangs for parasangs) (and i should have added a note "(Though this could be the long (width) Mediterranean.)"
Atlantis name:
Aaru/Aa-en-ru/Aalu (Amenti/Urani) of Egyptian might possibly match Atlas?
Gadira name/place:
Spanuth mentions Sierra de Gador in Italy.
Ships & Seafaring:
I didn't think to put an explanatory bit at the start.
"A petty objection that a few people keep raising against our thesis is about the distance and about seemingly/supposedly scanty evidence of ships and seafaring in Peru and between Peru/Atlantis and Egypt."
I should have written [2nd dyn &/or 18th dyn &/or 26th dyn].
"... in Crete [or "Cyprus"?] a year or two ago now."
Correction of typo of mine in the last Invasion bit, it should be "... is too far for Atlantis to...."
True or Lie:
I didn't fill in the number "survey of 270 authorities in Berlitz's".
I didn't fill in the "O'Toole" in the part that says "theories of O'Toole / P Graham / etc."
Refs: add "SB Cox ('Arktos Zephyros')" to my Atlantis refs.
I should have written Posnansky not Posnan in my list of references bit "Others who have placed Atlantis wholly or partly in Peru...."
pictures:
Apart from the ones with links i gave in the text, some of the ones from http://picasaweb.google.com/seanbam2/Antipodean could also be added if need/good.
listed bullet points:
the points that start with "- ...." i am not sure whether they are better all without or with empty lines between them. (Having empty line between them would make it easier to read but would also increase the booklet/paper length alot, and may make it abit too "scanty spread out -like". Having them without lines between is better in not being so too-spaced/spread-out, but maybe harder for people to read/follow/"get". If without empty lines between then I should have capitalised the first letter of some.)
-------
Addenda/Appendix.
To all orthodox academic thugs.
[This section is not yet finished. (I may not be able to finish anymore so am posting provisional of what done so far.]
So you trash all our hard work because it is supposedly not up to your "rigourous" papers rules/"standards".
If this and other papers of mine are not good enough for you then too bad for you and for me, because i have done my darn best (to the extent of almost having a heart attack) admist a hell situation & condition.
Ok, my writing and presentation "style" is not the best, but i have done the best i can to make it as useable as possible, and it is not fair to be trashed just because of things like that.
Any communication in life requires both sides to come & meet half way. I have gone far more than half way and orthodox academics outright state that they "don't have to" come any way at all.
I am sick of being treated disgracefully by orthodox academic thugs. All i ever have from orthodox academics is negatives, not any positives. Then we i am negative back it is me that is the one that is made to look/feel bad, and me that gets banned or told "do not email me anymore".
I have also shockingly been called dirty names. One even said i should be "squashed".
Yet again we have spent hours/days/weeks/months/years effort on a thesis paper only to have orthodox academic thugs yet again reject it because it still isn't up to their academic papers "standards". How many darn times i have already rewritten my papers. Nothing for all my hard work except negatives or nothing.
Well in short, shove it. The truth is the truth, and you[s] the orthodox academic establishment are not genuinely seeking it first.
If you don't want to "take seriously" our work than that is your problem not necessarily/just mine. We have taken very seriously seeking the truth, and you[s] do not seem to, and I do not take you[s] seriously when you[s] are evidently ingenuine.
Yes certain orthodox rules/"standards" in scholarship and state have good reasons, but some of the rules/"standards" are wrong legalism.
I am not able or willing to play your "references" game. I have tried to give what references & details i can. Yes references has some right value, but you can not place it so far above everything else. It seems to me that the references game is really not about accuracy/verification but just another tactic to evade/delay/burden the truth as much and as long as possible, and about people having to cite orthodox approved references (partly for ego/pride & profit), and people being trashed for citing orthodox branded "discredited/unreliable/fringe"/etc references. I know people who say their paper has many orthodox academic references, yet i know from the facts we have that their location theory is wrong. Any evidence i have given in the paper can easily be checked by academics who by their own mouth admit that they are superior to inferior dogs like me.
I have had every orthodox tactic used against me in order to evade reading/studying and delay facing/admiting the evidences given in our paper.
So you say "we don't have to prove/disprove, you have to". Well i have given plenty of evidences/proofs, but yous use excessive "all or nothing" "standards" excuses to evade, delay and cover-up. I have actually had people actually say that they not even look at or read our paper. Why don't orthodox have to prove their own reigning theories to the same excessive highest maximum "standards" that they force on all us non-orthodox? The onerous/burden should be equal on both sides.
So you say academics don't have time. Well i have spent far more time and effort than you. Why, i have to make all the effort and the reader doesn't have to make any.
So you say "orthodox academics don't care about your situation/condition, they only care about what you have to say"? Well firstly they don't care about what i have to say because they evade reading/listening by playing rules/"standards" tactics games. "Love edifies, knowledge puffs up". A number or orthodox academic papers that i have seen say that they wouldn't have been able to do their thesis paper without the positive love/support, help, advice of family, friends, teachers/mentors, etc. Even [Critias?] said that only when the necessities of life are meet are people able to have the time/freedom to do academic/cultural studies.
So you say that orthodox academics "have many theories/papers" every week to have to read. Well, i have done the best i can and it is not fair to not have any positive consideration just because we can't write everything the only one way you stipulate.
Any/all "original" connections copyright
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