I'm refreshing myself on the history of Bamburgh in Northumberland, England, UK to try help with solving the mystery in our Bambrough ancestry.
Interesting facts about Bambrough/Bamborough/Bamburgh.
Bamburgh Castle. It was originally a Celtic/British fort called Din Guardi, and was possibly the capital of the Celtic/British kingdom of Bernicia/Gododdin ca 420-547. Some think the castle was the location of Lancelot's Joyous Garde of King Arthur stories. Passed between Britons and Angles 3 times ca 547-590. It was the seat of the former kings of Bernicia/Northumberland Ida Fflamddwyn "flamebearer"(547-559) & Hussa & Aethelfrith (ca 593-604) from ca 547/590. (Ida's wife/queen was Bearnoch.) Aethelfrith passed the castle to his wife Queen Bebba in ca 600/615 (from whom the castle takes its name Bebban-burh). (In Bede Bebba is just called "a former queen" without any mention of Aethelfrith. so she might not have been Aethelfrith's wife, she might have been Ida's, and some other earlier queen. I think I saw somewhere that her name is Celtic/British?) In 793 Vikings appeared off Bamurghs coast and landed at Lindisfarne. From 867 to 933/934 it may have been the de facto capital of an independent north-east Northumbria. Under Athelstan of Wessex and Edmund I 933-939. Under Norse/Viking rule 939-944. Under Edmund I 944-946. Under earls/ealdormen/reeves 946-1041. Destroyed by Vikings in 993. United to Northumbria 1041-1065. Under Osulf II 1065-1067. William the Conquerer ca 1066. United with Northumbria from 1067. 1069-1070 Harrying of the North. In 1095 William Rufus captured Bamburgh. Robert de Mowbray "Percy" ("pierce eye") owned the castle in 1095. The castle was owned by the English monarch between 1095 to ca 1191. Sometime in 1124-1153 David built Bamburgh's keep (one of several times Bamburgh fell into Scottish hands). 1135-1154 Bamburgh in possession of King Stephen. The Forsters were owners/lords of the castle in later times (1191-...). Philip of Oldcoates controlled the castle in King John's reign. 1272-1307 Edward I ventured to Bamburgh. 1307-1327 Edward II ventured to Bamburgh. 1327-1377 Edward III ventured to Bamburgh. In the late 1300s Sir Henry/Harry Hotspur controlled the castle. In 1462 Bamburgh was a Lancastrian stronghold (Henry VI). 1462 Richard Neville Earl of Warwick Edward IV's lieutenant beseiged the castle. Control of the castle restored to Ralph Percy. Lancastrian French & Scottish troops arrive at the castle. 1464 siege of Bamburgh. (Lancastrian garrison under Sir Ralph Grey.) The castle was included in the property of friars seized on the behalf of Henry VIII during the Dissolution of the Monasteries. The Forster's owned the castle from the mid 1500s to ca 1700. It was sold to Lord Crew Bishop of Durham in 1704 and he placed the castle in the hands of a board of trustees chaired by Thomas Sharp Archdeacon of Northumberland, and then by his son John Sharp. The castle was bought by industrialist William Armstrong in 1894, and the Armstrongs still own it.
Bamburgh village, Northumberland. A late medieval village that developed near the castle. St Aidan's Church, Bamburgh was a church built built by St Aidan outside the castle wall in 635. Bamburgh is known for its association with Grace Darling.
Bamburgh Lighthouse was built in 1910.
Bamburgh Parish has 2 chapelries and 22 townships.
Bamburgh Beast, a gold plaque discovered in archaeological excavations at Bamburgh Castle.
Bamburgh Sword, disovered in archaeological excavations in Bamburgh Castle. Might be Ida's sword maybe?
Bamburgh Dunes, a site of special scientific interest.
Bamburgh Coast and Hills is also a site of special scientific interest.
Bamburgh Clinic, an extension of St Nicholas Hospital, Newcastle.
HMS Bamborough Castle was the name of a Royal Navy corvette in 1944.
Bamburgh Research Project investigates the archaeology and history of the castle and area.
Famous Bambroughs include:
Renford Bambrough, a British philospher, 1926-1999.
Sean Bambrough, free lance journalist in South Africa.
John Bamborough, British scholar of English literature and founder of Linacre college (Oxford).
Waltheof I ealdorman of Bamburgh ca 1006.
Laura Bambrough "L'Wren Scott", American fashion designer, costume designer, model, 1964-2014.
I could add myself Sean Bambrough, an independent researcher of history and mysteries and some other subjects who has made a number of seeming possible discoveries including Atlantis capital city (Tiahuanaco), and Alexander the Great's tomb (Taposiris Magna).
My father said his father said we are descended from a "Prussian prince" or "German prince" via a marine engineer, and another Bambrough from Newcastle said his family have the same tradition. Though I haven't been able to find any such link, so it might be a myth/mistake.
Bamburgh Baronets 1607-1631.
Bamberg a town/city in in Bavaria (Germany), also an early ruling dynasty of Austria, and name of Jewish Catholic prince bishops of Bamberg.
Bemborough (as in Sir Robert Bemborough who was at the Combat of the Thirty in 1351. He relied on the Prophecy of Merlin. His surname may be from either Pembrooke or Brandebourch).
Banbury, a town in England.
Brandenberg, north-east Germany, once part of Prussia under the Hohenzollerns.
My father claimed his father told him we are descended from a "Prussian prince" or a "German prince" via a marine engineer. Another Bambrough from Newcastle said they have the same story/tradition in their family too. But I have not found any connection with any Prussian or German prince, nor where my family links back to the family of the person in Newcastle. There are also two conlficting versions of our family tree as follows.
11. Thomas Bambrough + Ann Hood b 1669
10. Thomas Bambrough 1703 + Margaret Nixon 1705
9. Thomas Bambrough 1721-1800 + Margaret Jennings 1725-1762
8. John Bambrough b 1754/1755 + Isabel Forster/Maugham/Archer of Fellside 1753 (m 1755/1781?)
7. John Bambrough 1786/1787/1788/1789 + Dorothy Storey (m 1817) or Elizabeth Lonsdale (m 1828)?
6. William Bambrough 1820 engineer + Elizabeth Beylass
5. William A Bambrough 1851 + Ann Swallow (m 1873)
4. James Bambrough 1887-1918 + Margaret Beatrice Newman 1886-1928/1931 (m 1908)
3a. William Ernest (Laurence) Bambrough 1910-1984 + Ruby Constance Wildermoth 1911/1912-1979 (m 1934 NZ)
(3b. William Ernest Bambrough + Anne Patience Mcleman 1931-1984)
(2a. K... G... Bambrough (my father) + J... A... Wright)
2b. K... G... Bambrough (my father) + J... M... "E..." 1946-2020
1. V... S... W... Bambrough 1973 (me).
8. John Bambrough 1753-1833 + Elizabeth 1765-1849?
7a. William Bambrough 1794-1876 + Margaret Thompson 1801-1863 (m 1819 Durham)
7b. William Bambrough + Elizabeth Usher (m 1866 Durham)
6. James Bambrough 1825-1888 + Dorothy Heslop 1830-1900 (m 1850 Durham)
5. William Bambrough miner 1851-1916 + Ann Swallow 1850-1904 (m 1873 Durham)
4. James Bambrough 1888-1918 + Margaret Beatrice Newman 1886-1928/1931 (m 1908)
3a. William Ernest (Laurence) Bambrough 1910-1984 + Ruby Constance Wildermoth 1911/12-1979 (m 1934 NZ)
(3b. William Ernest Bambrough + Anne Patience Mcleman 1931-1984)
(2a. K... G... Bambrough (my father) + J... A... Wright)
2b. K... G... Bambrough (my father) + J... M... "E..." 1946-2020
1. V... S... W... Bambrough 1973 (me).
The second one is allegedly the correct one. But in neither can I find any link to any Prussian prince or German prince, nor any marine engineer, and something seems to be wrong somewhere. Unless the link is through the Forsters who were lords or Bamburgh castle in later middle ages. Or unless "German" was a mistake for Germanic/Teutonic Anglo-Saxon Bernician/Deiran Northumbrian Anglian dynasty of Ida or Aelle (and/or perhaps "Prussian" was due to mistakenly thinking the Angles or British came from the Baltic). (But I can't find any linke there with my limited resources. The Swinton's claim to be descended from the Northumbrian rulers.) Or unless the tradition is untrue and just arose from being nearby the prominent Bamburgh Castle.
My whole family has been totally smashed up.
My paternal grandfather shifted from UK to NZ.
My father's parents split up and both remarried.
My father had a previous marriage before he married my later mother, and my parents later split up and my mother remarried my later step father. I was fostered out about age 7 until mid-teenage years. I never met my full sister until age 11-12, and never met my real father until about age 14.
My mother's mother had an affair with a WW2 Italian POW in Nottingham, and my commonly assumed grandfather and grandmother shifted from UK to NZ.
My paternal uncle Patrick was murdered in Australia decades ago.
My paternal uncle John was murdered a number of years ago.
My full sister committed suicide in 2007.
My half brother cut me off.
I've never been able to get in contact with my paternal half sister.
I am still always been single in 40s.
My half aunty Margaret won't have contact with anyone.
My mother died of cancer in late 2020.
Wednesday, November 10, 2021
Sunday, October 17, 2021
Tomb of Alexander the Great
The whereabouts of Alexander's body is a mystery. It has not been found in Alexandria were it was supposed to be. There have been over 140 officially recognized search attempts.
Alexander's campaign and empire went from Macedonia and Greece through Asia Minor / Turkey, Syria-Palestine, Egypt, Mesopotamia/Iraq, Persia/Iran, Bactria/Afghanistan, Transoxania/Turkmenistan, India/Pakistan.
Alexander died in Babylon. He did not want to be buried in Aegae, Macedonia with his father. He wanted to be buried in Siwa (Ammonium) near the border of Egypt & Libya. "The possession of his body became a subject of negotiations between Perdiccas, Ptolemy I Soter, and Seleucus I Nicator." Plutarch said Python of Catana and Seleucus I Nicator were sent to consulted a/the Serapeum regarding whether Alexander's body should be buried in Alexandria, and it answered in the affirmative. "In 321 BC, on its way back to Macedonia, the funerary cart with Alexander's body was hijacked in Syria by one of Alexander's generals, Ptolemy I Soter." Ptolemy I Soter diverted Alexander's body to Egypt where it was interred at Memphis. (Alexander's empire was split up into about four main divisions, one of them was roughly Egypt under the Ptolemies, and another was roughly Syria and Mesopotamia and Iran under the Seleucids.) Later his body was transferred to Alexandria in late 4th or early 3rd cent bc, or in 280 or 274 bc by Ptolemy II Philadelphus. Ptolemy IV Philopator moved the body to the Soma/Sema Mausoleum in the center of Alexandria. The body was in a fitted hammered-gold coffin but later it was changed to a glass or crystal one. So Alexander's body can not be too far from Alexandria.
I considered many areas where Alexander might be buried but I decided that he must be near the Alexandria area. It is unlikely he was taken out of the Ptolemaic Egyptian kingdom area, and unlikely he was moved far from his last known resting place in Alexandria. In looking in and around the Alexandria and environs area it looked like the most likely place was the Pharos. But on further research I found that Taposiris Magna actually looks like the correct location as it has a number of stark matches evidences (see below). These stark matches made me think/feel pretty sure I have found Alexander's tomb/body location there (Taposiris/Abusir).
The tomb of Alexander is probably in/under/ontop of either
1 the temple or "pharos"/tower of Taposiris Magna (Borg el Arab / Abusir), or
2 the Pharos of Alexandria, or
3 the Serapeum, or
4 the Great Caesareum, or
all of which are in/at/near Alexandria (north-east Egypt).
The 1st one (Taposiris / Borg el Arab / Abusir) seems to be more likely.
1. Evidences for the temple or tower/pharos of Taposiris Magna, Abusir, west/south Alexandria.
Alexander's tomb was in Alexandria.
Taposiris is in Abusir in west/south Alexandria.
"A well-preserved ancient tomb in the town of Abusir, 48 kilometres (30 mi) southwest of Alexandria, is thought to be a scaled-down model of the Alexandria Pharos. .... It dates to the reign of Ptolemy II (285–246 BC)...."
"Near the beach side of the area, there are the remains of a tower built by Ptolemy II Philadelphus (between 280-270)."
Alexander's body was transferred to Alexandria in late 4th or early 3rd cent bc, or in the 280 or 274 bc by Ptolemy II Philadelphus.
The Magna in the name 'Taposiris Magna' means "Great", like the "Great" in "Alexander the Great".
Taposiris means "great tomb of Osiris", and it "is also believed to be the last resting place of Cleopatra", and there is a "necropolis" there, and the Pharos/Tower of Taposiris/Abusir "probably ... was only a funerary monument".
"A well-preserved ancient tomb in the town of Abusir, ..., is thought to be a scaled-down model of the Alexandria Pharos."
So the temple or the pharos/tower of Taposiris/Abusir could be the site of the tomb of Alexander?
The Taposiris temple was constructed by Ptolemy IV Philopator.
Ptolemy IV Philopator was the one to move Alexander's body to the Soma.
"Calisthenis states that Alexander the Great visited the city (Taposiris/Abusir) on his way to Siwa Oasis (Ammonium)", and we know that Alexander originally wanted to be buried at Siwa.
There are both public and private buildings in the Taposiris area, which might match the Soma "communal" mausoleum of Alexander's tomb?
The Taposiris temple was later used as a Christian church, and some say Alexander's tomb was in a crypt under a church.
Taposiris is in Abusir, west/south Alexandria. There is another Abusir nearby Memphis where Alexander had temporarily been interred before being shifted to Alexandria. (Abusir is not to be confused with Abukir.)
"Early investigations... show that the mummies were buried with their faces turned towards the temple (Taposiris), which means it is likely the temple contained the burial of a significant royal personality", "The discovery of this cemetery (Taposiris) indicates that an important person, likely of royal status, could be buried inside the temple."
Two of the Taposiris mummies are gilded, and they discovered tombs with golden-tongues dating to Greek and Roman periods, and they unearthed golf leaf amulets in the form of tongues placed for the speaking of Osiris in the afterlife, and they found gilded decorations.
Alexander was supposed to be in a coffin of hammered gold, and Cleopatra took gold from his tomb.
In the temple (Taposiris) was "discovered coins depicting the face of Alexander the Great".
"They have found a number of deep shafts inside the temple (Taposiris), three of which seem to have been used for burials."
One of the Taposiris mummies was wearing a crown, decorated with horns, and the cobra snake at the forehead.
Alexander is called Dhul Qarnain "one/two horned" in Arab/Muslim sources, and Alexander "sprang from Zeus/Jupiter/Ammon in the form of a serpent".
Taposiris' name relates to Osiris.
Plutarch says they sought the oracle of the Serapeum about Alexander's burial, and Serapis is supposed to be a combimation of Osiris/Asar & Apis/Hapi.
"The finds from Taposiris reflect a charm that could have captured the hearts of Julius Caesar".
Julius Caesar is supposed to have visited Alexander's tomb.
Taposiris is supposed to be connected with Cleopatra and Mark Antony.
Alexander's tomb is connected with St Mark's in Venice. Cleopatra visited Alexander's tomb, and she supposedly took gold from Alexander's tomb.
(Plutarch is also linked with both Alexander's tomb and Taposiris.)
Taposiris was a "city", and "there must have been a town here (Taposiris) in the Hellenistic period", and Taposiris was a centre for a religious festival,
which might match Alexander's tomb was "in the centre of Alexandria"?
2. Evidences for the Pharos of Alexandria.
The Pharos as a great lighthouse momument and wonder of the world is a suitable memorial of Alexander.
"The lighthouse (Pharos) was constructed in the third century BC. After Alexander the Great died, the first Ptolemy (Ptolemy I Soter) declared himself king in 305 BC, and commissioned its construction shortly thereafter. The building was finished during the reign of his son, Ptolemy II Philadelphus, and took twelve years to complete...."
So the Pharos was built not long after Alexander's death. (Alexander's body was temporarily interred at Memphis in ca 321, and was transferred to Alexandria in late 4th or early 3rd cent bc, or in the 280 or 274 bc by Ptolemy II Philadelphus, though it was supposedly placed in a communal mausoleum (the Soma/Sema) by Ptolemy IV Philopator 221-204.)
Alexander promoted that he was son of Zeus Ammon.
The Pharos had a statue of Zeus on the top. "Al-Masudi wrote in the 10th century that the seaward-facing side featured an inscription dedicated to Zeus."
The Pharos was partly ruined by 1326, which date minus 1000 and switched from ad to bc is almost exactly 1000 yrs after Alexander's death in 323 bc. The 1303 earthquake date is also similar.
St Mark's in Venice is associated with Alexander's tomb.
The Pharos is associated with St Mark.
Alexander's tomb was supposed to be a mosque and to have a pyramidical roof.
The Pharos is sort of pyramidical, and supposedly had a "mosque" on top of it, and "The design of minarets in many early Egyptian Islamic mosques followed a three-stage design similar to that of the Pharos".
"A well-preserved ancient tomb in the town of Abusir, 48 kilometres (30 mi) southwest of Alexandria, is thought to be a scaled-down model of the Alexandria Pharos. .... It dates to the reign of Ptolemy II (285–246 BC), and is therefore likely to have been built at about the same time as the Alexandria Pharos."
So the Pharos of Alexandria could be associated with a tomb like the Abusir model is?
"Strabo specifically located the tomb as adjacent to the palaces (all references to the "center of the city" become dubious therein since recent marine archaeology is now indicating that the palaces were located in what is the present-day harbor of Alexandria!"
So this sounds like it might be near the Pharos?
3. Evidences for the Serapeum (Alexandria) :
Plutarch said they consulted the oracle at the Serapeum regarding whether Alexander's body should be buried in Alexandria.
Alexander's body was temporarily at Memphis before being transfered to Alexandria.
Serapis is also connected with Sakkarah/Memphis.
Serapis is connected with healing and with a sarcophagus under Sakkarah.
4. Evidences for the Great Caesareum (Alexandria) :
Alexander's tomb was in Alexandria. The Great Caesareum is in Alexandria.
Caesar and Alexander are similar.
Great Caesareum and Alexander the Great both have "great" in them.
5. Evidences for Somouha/Smouha (Alexandria) :
The name Somouha/Smouha (in Alexandria) is similar to Soma/Sema (the name of Alexander's mausoleum/tomb in Alexandria)?
Alexander's tomb is supposed to be in a later mosque, and to have a pyramidical roof.
There is/are one or two Muslim mosques in Somouha/Smouha
Unless of course the Romans removed his coffin to Rome. Emperor Trajan identified himself with Alexander, and in the match of the popes list with the emperors liet Pope Alexander 1 matches Trajan. Vespasian was also in Egypt.
Previously I thought Amphipolis/Kasta tomb in Macedonia/Greece might be his tomb ( http://atlantisonline.smfforfree2.com/index.php/topic,34548.0.html ), but that looks unlikely now.
An older post on Alexander's tomb is here
Some suppose that the body in St Mark's in Venice is Alexander. But this body is more likely Mark Antony.
As to the "tomb of Alexander in Ecbatana (Media)" I don't think this can be Alexander's tomb since he died in Babylon some distance southwest and was taken towards Macedonia and ended up in Egypt.
Friday, October 15, 2021
Location of land of Dilmun
The article is about the quest to locate the land of Dilmun of ancient Mesopotamian legend and records.
Dilmun features in a creation myth involving the god Enki.
Dilmun is a land in the Epic of Gilgamesh which Ziusudra/Utnapishtim the Sumerian/Akkadian Noah was translated to after the Flood/Deluge, and which the hero Gilgamesh travelled over land and sea to visit him at. Fasold thought this Dilmun was in the Ararat/Armenia area.
Some sources say the Sumerians came from Dilmun.
Dilmun, Magan, and Meluhha are also lands which the Sumerians & Akkadians traded with or through by way of the Persian Gulf.
In late ancient times Magan and Meluhha were used for Egypt and Ethiopia.
In the conventionl view Dilmun of Sumerian and Akkadian legend and records is most likely in the borders of the Indian Ocean / Arabian Sea / Red Sea / Persia Gulf somewhere between Mesopotamia and India, or else between Mesopotamia and Egypt. Dilmun is asserted by "conventional consensus experts" to be Bahrein in the Persian Gulf, and Meluhha is asserted to be India or the Indus Valley. However, I majorly dispute these 2 identifications. Another thing I dispute is the narrow mindset that ancient civilisations like Mesopotamia and Egypt only had limited distance regional contacts. I think/feel that ancients had far greater distance contacts than modern skeptics believe, and that we should have a more wide open-minded global view of ancient history and geography. In this article we look at possible alternative candidates for Dilmun (and Magan, and Meluhha) both near and far from Mesopotamia.
I have not yet gone through the candidates and narrowed down which are the most and least likely candidates. But let no one accuse us of "indiscriminately" listing candidates, because we have reasons for each candidate and we know for plenty whether they are more or less likely. (From over ten years experiences I know our critics/rivals/opponents/enemies are always using this and other cunningly lying tactics to falsely discredit us or steal our connections/credit.)
Please note that in this article Atlantis and Peru are the same in my mind. See my Atlantis ebook i which I show that Tiahuanaco certainly matches Atlantis capital city. The biblical Tarshish might also be the same place too.
Also note that we use interchanges or transpositions or prefixes or omissions/dropping with some candidate name matches.
Dilmun is doubted as being Bahrein because:
- Gilgamesh went north (north wind bit into his face).
- Dilmun was in the east/sunrise. Bahrein is not really east of Mesopotamian, though it is south-east.
- Gilgamesh went down into the forest, but one can't go down at sea level in the Bahrein area?
- Dilmun couldn't have been in the Persian Gulf at the time the sea level was lower, because the Gulf would have been land.
- Dilmun was at the mouth (or source) of the rivers. Bahrein is a long way from the mouth of the Euphrates & Tigris. It was even further before the alluvium etended the shore/coast further south. (Nor could one say that it was near the mouth of the rivers when the sea level was lower and the Gulf was land, because the rivers meet each other much further north.)
- Gilgamesh wandered the steppes. Kur Dilmun could mean Mount Dilmun. There are no mountains or steppes in the Bahrein area.
- It seems maybe abit odd that there was both an Akharru "behind/hind" in Syria-Palestine (west side of Arabia), and an Agaru/Akarum in the Kuwait/Bahrein area (east side of Arabia)?
- Dilmun had a great fortified place of the gods, but there doesn't seem to be any such remains in the Bahrein area? (Source says only 172000 graves, and local population, and numbers of Bronze Age settlements, and ruins under the Gulf.)
- Gilgamesh visited Ziusudra/Utnapishtim the "Sumerian/Akkadian Noah". Noah in the Bible was in the Ararat area and not in the Bahrein area.
- Gilgamesh travelled the Harran ilu Shamash "road of the sun". This might mean east or west or by way of Haran/Harran. Bahrein is not really east of Mesopotamian, nor is it west, nor is it anywhere near Haran.
- "As of 2021, archaeologists have failed to find a site in existence during the time from 3300 BC (Uruk IV) to 556 BC (Neo-Babylonian Era), when Dilmun appears in texts. According to Hojlund, no settlements exist in the Gulf littoral dating to 3300–2000 BC."
- Dilmun was a "land". Bahrain is only a small island.
- Dilmun was beyond the sea. Bahrain is in the Persian Gulf.
Dilmun details from the various ancient sources:
(Kur) Dilmun/Dilman/Tilmun/Telmun(-na/ki) ("mount") "land of missles" ("city/land").
Pu-land (alternative reading/name for Dilmun).
Ni-duk-ki/Ni-tuk-ki / I-tuk-ki / Iatu/Ia-tuk-ki / Iau-tuk-ki/Itu-land-ka "land mouth" (alternative reading/name for Dilmun).
Dur-mah-ilani "great fortified place of the gods" (in the land of Dilmun).
Agaru/Akarum (the region west of Dilmun or of Bahrein)?
"Land of the Living" (another name used for it)?
- Location details/directions:
a foreign land, in the east/sunrise.
place where Shamash/Sun rises.
"30 parasangs/double-hours or 40 leagues away in the midst of the sea of the rising sun", from Saglat in Bit-yakin on the Elamite border, had to be arrived at by boat.
to the north (north wind bit face, Epic of Gilgamesh).
at the mouth or source of the rivers (Epic of Gilgamesh).
Gilgamesh went down into the forest (Epic of Gilgamesh).
Gilgamesh wandered the steppes (Epic of Gilgamesh).
Gilgamesh travelled the Harran (ilu) Shamash (Epic of Gilgamesh)."road/path/way/track of the sun (god)" (Epic of Gilgamesh).
Gilgamesh had to pass through Mt Mashu "twin peaks" to reach Dilmun (Epic of Gilgamesh).
was a source of copper.
was a trade partner/entrepot.
was originally a holy/pure/virgin land.
connected with Meluhha (and Magan).
was one of eight nagu regions beyond the surrounding sea.
Lord of Dilmun
Sumulel servant of Inzak of Akarum
- Periods when mentioned in Mesopotamian:
Ziusudra/Utnapishtim/Atrahasis "27th" cent bc
Uruk IV "3300" bc (or late "3rd" millenium bc?)
EDP III / Urnanshe/Urnina "2550-2500/2300" bc
Sargon I" 2371-2316" bc
Ibbisin "2028" bc
Sealand I dyn / Eagamil
Kassites / Burnaburiash II "1370" bc
Middle Assyrian "1250-1050"
Neo-Assyrian / Sargon II
Neo-Babylonian / Nabonidus 567/556/538 bc
- Location details/directions:
was a source of copper and diorite.
connected with Meluhha (and Dilmun).
reached via the Lower Sea.
Lord of Magan.
- Periods when mentioned in Mesopotamian:
Sargon I "2371-2316" bc ("2300" bc or "23rd" cent bc)
Ur-nammu "2113/2100-2096" bc
Ashurbanipal 643 bc
- Location details/directions:
a foreign land.
blocks of lapis lazuli and carnelian came from Meluhha.
was within Parahshum/Marhashi, or contact/connection with Marhashi.
seems to be to the east.
connected with Magan (and Dilmun).
had a different language requiring an interpreter.
- Periods when mentioned in Mesopotamian:
Sargon I "2371/2334-2316/2279" bc
Naramsin "2254-2218" (or "2200" bc)
Gudea "21st" cent bc
Hellenistic / Seleucid / Antiochus IV Epiphanes.
Lists of candidate name/meaning and/or nature matches.
(Kur) Dilmun/Dilman/Tilmun/Telmun(-na/ki) ("mount") "land of missles" ("city/land"):
Mesopotamian: Hilmu? Elymais? Tilla? Tel(l) al-Lahm (Kuara/Kisiga)? Umm Daleimin (Shatt-el-Arab/Qurnah/Basra/Marsh Arabs)? Tilgarimu? Tummul/Dauhma? Ma'din (Marsh Arabs, metathesis/transposition, l/n interchange)?
Arabian: Telmelah/Thelme (near Persian Gulf, Ptolemy)? Dalma (UAE)?
Sinbad? Oman? Ad Dammam?
Iranian: Qeshm? Kerman? Dilmakan (Tabriz/Kerman, Persia/Azrbaijan)? Deylaman/Dilman (Gilan, Iran)? Dailam/Tabaristan/Gilan? Deylamites (between Gilan & Tabaristan, Alborz)? Daylam (Mazandaran, Iran)? Damavand? Bandar(-e)_De(y)lam (Elam)? Deylam (Khuzistan)? Mt Suleiman?
Indian: Tamil/Dravidian (metathesis)? Dilmah? Dholavira? Delhi? Munda? Mu? Dalai Lama? Silem (India)? Indus Seals? Dilipa? Ir-la-man (Indus Seal, Waddell)? jar-tila "wild sesame"?
Indonesian: Timor? Taiwan?
Biblical: Elam? Salem? Adam? Teman? Dalmanutha? Eden? Nod? Nimrod (read in reverse direction, l/r interchange, transposed vowels)?
Phoenician/Canaanite: Sidimus? Sad-el?
Peruvian: Illimani (Peru)?
Classical: Atlantis? Dimini? Tylos? Thule? Danubian? Olympos? Delphi? Lemnos? Dalmatia?
Celtic/British: Dylan/Endil? Lemanis? Dolmen? Diluvian?
Mexican: Olman/Olmec? Tlam? Mu? Tulan?
Mormon: Laman (Mormon)?
Transcaucasian: Medzamon/Metsamor? Urmia? Dilman (Agsu/Asgu Rayon, Azerbaijan)? Dilmady (Astara, Azerbaijan)?
Central Asian: Turkmen? Tarim Basin (Sinkiang)?
Unsorted: Dailamites/Dimli (near Tigris, Anatolia)?
Pu-land (alternative reading/name of Dilmun) :
Egyptian: Punt? Buto?
Indian: Punjab? Puru?
Phoenician: Punic (Carthage)?
Peruvian: Puma Punku? Putuni? Puno? Pirua/Peru? Poopo?
Ni-duk-ki/Ni-tuk-ki / I-tuk-ki / Iatu-land / Ia-tuk-ki / Iau-tuk-ki/Itu-land-ka "land mouth" (alternative reading/name of Dilmun) :
Indian: Indus? Yadu?
Egyptian: Itur/Iatur/Atur/Itru "Nile"? Neter "adze"? Nile/Nilus? Nitocris?
Biblical: Hiddekel/Tigris? Nod?
(Note the similarity of Iatu.../Iatuk... and Tiagu.../Tiahu... by minor transposition of the ia & t. Also maybe note the intriguing similarity of Iatu-land/Itu-land and Atlantis.)
Dur-mah-ilani "great fortified place of the gods" (in the land of Dilmun) :
Classical: Troy/Ilos? Atlantis capital city? Tarsus?
Peruvian: Illimani (Peru)?
Mesopotamian: Dur-ash-ki-gal ("fortress", "great city", great fortified city, remote, in west, beyond or to north of Egypt)? Dur-ili/Dur-ilu(-ki-gal) (remote, in west, beyond or to north of Egypt)? Darala/Urashla/Ebla? Der? Dur city?
Biblical: Tarshish? Dor?
(Note maybe only one place in the world best matches the descriptions of great city, great fortified city, great fortified place of the gods. That place is Atlantis capital city which we locate at Tiahuanaco/Tiwanaku.)
Agaru/Akarum (region on west of Dilmun or of Bahrein) :
Mesopotamian: Akharru "behind" (Syria-Palestine)? Tell Abraq? Tell Agram/Aqram?
North African / Arabian: Maghreb?
Portuguese / Arabian: Algarve?
Biblical: Hagar? Horeb? Agur?
Phoenician/Canaanite: Ugarit? Agrotes?
Egyptian: Kharu (Syrian)? Aaru/Aalu?
Classical: Icarian? Carian?
Indian / Central Asian: Agartha/Agarthi? Agudu (Indus Seals, Waddell)?
Arabian: Aqaba? Arab?
Transcaucasian: Agsu/Asgu Rayon (Azerbaijan)?
Maeshgan/Makkan / Maganna/Magan(ki) "ships/boats" :
Mesopotamian: Ma'dan (Marsh Arabs)? Mashtan island?
Arabian: Mahra? Macae? Makse? Mecca? Maan (Petra)? Majnoon (Noah)? Magalani? Makna/Magani/Maknawis or Maqla (Midian, nw Saudi Arabia)? Main (Yemen)?
Egyptian: Mafkat (turquoise-stone land)? Ma/Meshwesh? Maxy(c)es? Wadi Magharah?
Biblical: Magog? Maacah? Magdala?
Phoenician: Magos (Phoenician)?
Iranian: Maka/Makran/Myci (Iran)? Hamadan? Magi? Samarkand?
Central Asian: Takla Makan (Tarim/Sinkiang)?
Transcaucasian: Macrones (Armenia)? Dilmakan (Tabriz/Kerman, Persia/Azrbaijan)?
Greek: Mycenae? Atlantis (ships/boats)?
Indian/Indo-Chinese/Indonesian: Malaga? Naga? Magadha? Mekong?
Peruvian: Manco Capac?
Unsorted: Tamajan? Atlantis/Peru (ships/boats)?
(Kur) Milukhkha/Melugga/Meluhha/Melahha/Meluhha(-ki) ("country") :
Persian Gulf: Failaka? Melangitso?
Indian/Pakistan/Indonesia: Malaga? Malabar? Moluccas? Mleccha? Sumeru/Meru? Baluchistan? Malaya? Malacca? Maldive? mel-akam "highland country"? ellu "sesame (oil)"? Mehrgarh?
Biblical: Amalek? Emlak/Havilah? Moloch?
Phoenican: Malah (Phoenician sea/sailor/ship god)?
North African: Morocco/Marakesh?
Ethiopian/Sudan/Egypt: Meroe? Menelik?
Anatolian/Asia/Turkey: Lukka/Lycian? Wilusa (Troy)? Meropis?
Mexican: Mexica (Aztecs)? America?
Peruvian: Peru? Manoa (Eldorado)?
Maori/Polynesian: Manuka? Milu/Miru?
pi narate "mouth (or source) of the rivers" (Epic of Gilgamesh) :
Greek/Egyptian/Atlantean: Atlantis city (where ditch and channels all run down to)?
Phoenician/Canaanite: Sad-El dwelling of El at mouth of rivers?
Biblical: 4 rivers of Eden?
Mesopotamian: Nar (Euphrates)? Nairi?
Harran (ilu) Shamash "road of the sun (god)" (Epic of Gilgamesh) :
Biblical: Shem? Haran?
Peruvian: Route of Viracocha? Gateway of the Sun?
Mt Mashu "twin peaks" (Epic of Gilgamesh) :
Mesopotamian: Mt Amasis/Masis/Baris/Abaris? Mt Nimush/Nisir? Masu/Bar "hero"? Sumasti/Subartu/Suedin?
Indian: Meru? Pas(h)u "beasts/cattle"? Manu?
Peruvian: Macchu Picchu?
Biblical: Mash/Meshech? Damascus?
Egyptian: Ma/Meshwesh (Sea Peoples)? Tamahu? Mt Manu? Amsu (Min)?
Transcaucasian: Mahser/Mahsur (Dogubayzit or Agri Dag / Mt Ararat area)?
Unsorted: Masooleh? Mashoof?
Gilgamesh went "down" into the forest (Epic of Gilgamesh) :
Transcaucasian: Seas of Transcaucasia area (Van, Urmia, Sevan, Gokcha)?
"in the midst of the sea", had to be arrived at by boat:
Biblical: Tarshish "in the heart of the seas" (27:25)? Babylon (sits amidst waters, Revelation)?
Indian: Indus Valley?
Biblical/Israeli: Eden? Holy Land (Palestine/Israel)?
Ninsikila (Ninhursaga) :
Indian: Kali? Shakti?
Indian: Kali? Shakti?
Mexican: Mexica/Mexico? Metztli?
Mesopotamian: Insakh/Enlil? Itak/Ztak/Isum?
Transcaucasian: Endzak (Armenian patriarch/king)? Gandzak(-Shahastan)? Gendzakh?
Indian: Indra? Indu?
Biblical: Enoch? Isaac?
Enki (Enkig/Ea/Nudimmud) :
Lahamun ("Sarpanitu") :
Mesopotamian: Lahamu? Tel(l) al-Lahm (Kuara/Kisiga)?
Suluhitu (spouse of Inzak) :
Mesopotamian: Sarra Itu?
Gilgamesh/Bilgames / Izzaxgamesh / Izdubar / Namratsit (Epic of Gilgamesh) :
Biblical: Elam? Gomer? Ham? Lamech? Kedorlaomer? Nimrod? James/Jacob? Shem? Japheth? Isaac?
Mesopotamian: Bel? Masu?
Classical: Hercules? Hermes? Ganymede?
Indian: Kama? Bhima? Ganesha?
Sabit / Siduri (cupbearer, by seashore, Epic of Gilgamesh) :
Biblical: Siddim? Sidon? Sheba?
Indian: Savitri/Savitar? Sri(devi)? Sapta Sindhu?
Transcaucasian/Iranian: Tabriz? Tabaristan? Cordyene/Kurd? Curid? Siunia? Teyseba/Tsuinia (Gohcha/Sevan)? Safid (Caspian)? Sabalan? Cizre?
Scythian: Tabiti (Scythian goddess)?
Manium/Mannu-dannu (king of Dilmun, versus Naramsin) :
Peruvian: Manco Capac?
Norse/German: Mannus? Dan/Danus?
Upir/Uperi/Operi (king of Dilmun or of Bahrein) :
Indian: Kuvera/Kubera? Pamir?
120 poles of Gilgamesh, 12 tablets Epic of Gilgamesh (Epic of Gilgamesh) :
Classical: 12 pillars of Hercules? 12 labours Hercules? 12 intended books Homer?
Germanic: long hundred (120)?
Ziusudra / Ut-napishtim/Shamash-napishtim / Atrahasis/Hasisatra (Epic of Gilgamesh) :
Indian: Dyaus (Pitar)?
Biblical: Noah? Shem? Japheth? Yeshua/Jesus?
Classical: Deucalion? Zeus? Poseidon (Atlantis)?
Ur-shanabi (Urhea? ferryman, Epic of Gilgamesh) :
Classical: Uranus? Charon?
Aqrabu-amelu / Girtab-lullu "scorpion men" (Epic of Gilgamesh) :
Mesopotamian: Akharru "behind" (Syria-Palestine)? Tell Agram/Aqram?
North African / Arab: Maghreb?
Arabian: Aqaba? Arab?
Biblical: locust-scorpions (Revelation)?
Transcaucasian: Agsu/Asgu Rayon (Azerbiajan)? Kurds "guardians"?
in/to the east/sunrise (Nar Marratu / Persian Gulf / Red Sea / Indian Ocean) or where Shamash rises:
There was a reversal of compass/cardinal points/directions one or more times in ancient history as attested in Herodotus and some other sources.
The Egyptians and Arabs/Muslims had south as top/up.
Mesopotamians might have confused Amurru (Mediterranean) and Marratu (Persian Gulf / Indian Ocean), since Akkadian Amurru matches Sumerian Martu/Matu? Waddell has Iatuland/Puland (Dilmun) and Durash in the upper? sea (Mediterranean/Atlantic), not the lower sea. Durash is "in the west, beyond or to north of Egypt".
In Sumerian/Akkadian Suedin/Subartu was supposed to be in the east, but Suedin might match Sodom/Siddim. Semites had east as front, west as behind/back.
Shamash might be biblical Shem.
Since the Earth is a globe one could reach Atlantis/Peru on the other side of the world from Mesopotamia by travelling either west (Atlantic) or east (Indian & Pacific oceans) or south (Antarctic).
Japan "land of the rising sun"?
waters of death (Epic of Gilgamesh), &/or lower sea (Nar Marratu / Persian Gulf / Indian Ocean) :
Mesopotamian: Nar Marratu / Persian Gulf / Indian Ocean? Mesopotamians might have confused Amurru (Mediterranean) and Marratu (Persian Gulf / Indian Ocean), since Akkadian Amurru matches Sumerian Martu/Matu? Waddell has Iatuland/Puland (Dilmun) and Durash in the upper? sea (Mediterranean/Atlantic), not the lower sea. Durash is "in the west, beyond or to north of Egypt".
Biblical: Dead Sea? The Flood? Waters Below (Genesis 1)? Sea of Galilee?
Classical/Atlantean/Atlantic/American: Atlantic Ocean?
Transcaucasian: Seas of Transcaucasia (Van, Urmia, Sevan, Gokcha)?
garden of Shamash/sun (Epic of Gilgamesh) :
Salmas? Shavarsh? Shamakhy (Azerbaijan)? Tell Shemshara / Mat Utem land of gate keeper (Zab)?
Shamakha? Shemshak? Tangeh Savashi? Shemsdin? Semdinli? Tamajan?
garden/grove of the gods (Epic of Gilgamesh) :
The area of the cities of the plain was like the garden of the lord (Sodom, Genesis)? Garden of Eden?
(End of candidates lists.)
It looks quite possible that either Dilmun, or Dur-mah-ilani or Dur-ash or Dur-ilu, or Magan, or Meluhha is connected with Atlantis/Tiahuanaco (Peru). Consider these points in recap:
- Dilmun and Magan are connected with ships/boats. Atlantis is also linked with ships/boats.
- Dilmun was "faraway", and/or Dur-ash or Dur-ilu was "remote". Atlantis is most remote/distant in Plato and Diodorus Siculus. Peru is very distant.
- The name Iatukki is similar to the first half of Tiahuanaco (our Atlantis city site). The name Iatu-land is also maybe similar to Atlantis?
- Dilmun was in the midst of the sea. Atlantis seems to be similar. The biblical Tarshish was also in the heart of the sea(s), and Tarshish has similarities with Atlantis too.
- Dur-mah-ilani or Dur-ash or Dur-ilu as a "great fortified place of the gods" or "great fortified city" or "great city" or "fortress" sounds too much like Atlantis city.
Dur-mah-ilani or Dur-ash? or Dur-ilu? might also be connected with Tarshish, and Tarshish has similarities with Atlantis too.
- Waddell's text has Iatuland/Puland/Dilmun in the Upper Sea not the Lower Sea. Dur-ash or Dur-ilu (Dur-mah-ilani?) being "in the west, beyond or north of Egypt" well fits Atlantis/Tiahuanaco in the Atlantic.
- There are candidate matches for the names Dilmun/Iatukki/Puland, Magan, Meluhha in the Peru area where we place Atlantis city (eg Illimani, Manco, Peru).
- The waters of death that Gilgamesh travelled over to get to Dilmun might be the Atlantic?
- Mt Mashu is similar to Macchu Picchu. Or, Mashu "twin peaks" could match the 2 peaks Illimani and Illampu/Sorata which Tiahuanaco is situated in relation to?
- Dilmun's situation at Pi Narate "mouth/source of the rivers" could match Atlantis city where the ditch and channels of the large plain all run down to.
- 120 poles of Gilgamesh and 12 tablets of Epic of Gilgamesh may link with 12 pillars of Hercules and 12 labours of Hercules. Atlantis is associated with the Pillars of Hercules.
- Dilmun as being originally a holy/pure/virgin land might match Atlantis as a sacred isle or royal island or golden land, and might match Peru at the time Tiauanaco/Atlantis city was founded.
- Dilmun was 30 parasangs from Mesopotamia.
Tarshish is linked with "a sea 2000 parasangs wide". Tarshish has similarities with Atlantis.
- The Indus Valley civilisation might have been like a big intermediate ships/boats trading port/post/depot? The Indus Script is similar to the Easter Island script not far from Peru.
For our previous theorised locations of Dilmun a number of years ago see http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=33726 .
References/sources / acknowledgments:
Ashurbanipal 'Rassam Cylinder'
Alan Alford Gods of the New Millenium
Anonymous 'Babylonian & Assyrian Lieterature'
Black & Green Gods, Demons & Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia
Geoffrey Bibby Looking for Dilmun
Bahrein National Museum
Vlad Sean Bambrough / "Arthur-Robin" allempires forum topic
Epic of Gilgamesh
Enki & Ninhursaga poem/saga
Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta
Editors of Time-Life Books
David Fasold Discovery of Noah's Ark
Dora Jane Hamblin
Indus Valley Seals
Michael Jordan Encyclopedia of Gods
Leonard W King Legends of Babylon & Egypt
LW King & HR Hall
Walter Mattfeld http://www.bibleorigins.net/
Readers Digest Vanished Civilizations
H Rawlinson History of Phoenicia
'Sharrukin' posts in allempires forum
Smithsonian Magazine vol 18 no 2
Urnanshe/Urnina plaque or Votive relief of Urnanshe
Barbara Walker Womens Encyclopedia of Myths & Secrets
LA Waddell Makers of Civilization
We will just add our candidates for the location of the land of Punt in Egyptian records.
Punt (Pweni/Puanit/Pwene/Pwenet/Pwnt/P-wn-n-t land, Ta-netjer/Neterto "holy/divine/god's land", Khenthennefer) :
Ha-fun (Horn of Africa, Rohl)? Opone/Pano (Somalia)? Puntland (Somalia)?
Peninj (East Africa)?
Pwani (Tanganyika/Tanzania)? Pondo (South Africa)? Ba-ntu "men"? Mbuti/Mbutu Pygmies?
Punic (Carthaginian/Phoenician)? Putiya/Putaya ("Libya", Persian)?
Z-a_puna_q(m) (Egyptian/Phoenician inscription)? Pool of Pant? Fent/Shent/Khent ("upper/south" Egypt)?
Phut/Put ("Libya", Genesis 10)? Pul (African place, Isaiah 66, l/n interchange)? Ophir?
Phoenician? Punic (Phoenician/Carthaginian)? Z-a_puna_q(m) (Egyptian/Phoenician inscription)?
Phut/Put ("Libya", Genesis 10)? Punon/Phunon/Pinon (Edom/Arabia/Sinai, Numbers 33)? Pul (African place, Isaiah 66, l/n interchange)? Ophir? Pleti/Pelethites (during David's reign in Bible, l/n interchange)?* Nod (P- prefix)? Ha-saponi "northerners" (Jewish)?*
Punjab? Pundarika "great lotus" (ancient Indian king)? Pani(s)? Poona (India)? Pune (India)? Panchala (ancient Indian dynasty)? Pandyan(s) (India)?
Pu-land/Dilmun?* Uan/Oannes? Meso-potamia?
Untae (Urartian/Indus goddess, ref Hrozny)? Van (lake, Urartu/Armenia)?
Phoenix (east/Arabia/Asia/India)? Pontus (Asia Minor)?
Phoenix (east/Arabia/Asia/India)? Pontus (Asia Minor)?
Po river? Pontiff(ex)? Pompeii/Pompey? Faunus/Pan? Venice?
pond? pound? pint? Puck (Robin Goodfellow)? pony? point? pot/pottery?
Puno (Peru)? Punin (Ecuador)? Pumapunku (Tiahuanaco)?
Pawnee (Amerind)? Pano(an)?
Papua(n) (New Guinea)?
Ponape (Nan Madol/Metaranimu/Metalanim, Caroline Is)? Epuni (NZ Maori)?
* Pu-land/Dilmun might be in South America or Atlantis and not in Asia?
* Origins of Pleti/Pelethites and Ha-saponi uncertain but they apparently might be from Mediterranean or Europe.
Thursday, October 7, 2021
Shroud of Turin
The Shroud of Turin is certainly a fake.
- "Jews didn't bury with a shroud and Veronica like that, they used one lower covering body, and used a face knapkin/kerchief".
The bible definitely says it is a fake. Matthew says a linen cloth, Mark says some/the linen cloth, Luke says linen cloth, but John says strips of linen and a face cloth both for Lazarus and Jesus (similar to Egyptian mummies), and also "the linen" for Jesus, and he further adds "take off the grave clothes" for Lazarus. So its definitely a fake. (Though I haven't checked the Greek interlinear version, only English translations.) Also there is not trace in/on the shroud of the oils and spices that Joseph and Nicodemus are said to have used.
- The head/face/hair features are not Jewish and not "marred more than any man" (pulled out beard, all the wounds), and "dead bodies don't bleed"? "Gaunt face" etc doesn't sound like Jesus.
(Wonder who the face is? Looks like a Roman nose maybe.)
- dating is only 1200s-1300s, and although carbon dating is not reliable it usually gives older dates not younger ones. It cant be traced before 1300s/1400s, or 11th cent based on art-historical grounds, or even if it is same as Edessa one then not before 600s, or if really connected with Edessa/Abgarus then not before then. The Pilate coins on eyes are now supposed to be false.
- right arm is too long ("impossible").
- fabric is too late and doesn't match the time and place?
- If it is authentic why would God allow it to be in hands of the harlot Babylon and allow it have been partly burnt? Why does Catholic church hold an undediced either way view? Bible doesn't say anything about it after the ca 30s ad events unless hidden in skip code.
- Roman "christians" are well known for faking or mixing/disguising/substituing things like saints, holy days, popes list, etc. Perhaps the names "Jesus" or "St John" or "Jehohanan" or "Peter" or "Veronica" or "Turin" or "Edessa" or "Sindone" or "Lituus" (astrologers staff) or "IOU" etc might point to origin.
"Why would they who hated and trying to destroy it fake evidence for it?" As a form of clever cunning "join them" and mixture and hijacking (wolves in sheeps clothing) and anti-christ and "contempt for Christianity" and secret identity disgusied as "replacing pagan with christian", and pride/owning for being the crucifiers. Eg their "Peter" is really Nero or Caesar and/or Liber Pater or Jupiter.
- Why would God/Jesus want image to appear on shroud? What purpose?
- The imprinting of a persons image on a cloth seems against laws of science and seems unprecedneted. (Meaning either a fake or freak or supernatural/divine.)
- How did it last so well over 2000 years?
- It seems to conflict with Wyatt's alleged Ark and blood finds and prophecies, and although Wyatt's are also disputed they are more likely truthful than the Roman shroud.
Thursday, September 30, 2021
Sodom found in Mesopotamian records?
Sodom is possibly found in Sumerian and Akkadian as either/both of Su-edin(-ki)/Subartu/'Sumasti /Su-rum? and/or Shu-edin-hum/S(h)iri-hum / Shu-rum-hum? /Siru-hum? /Edin-hum? / Rum-hum? We will briefly discuss our reasons for seeing this match below.
Sodom name match and Siddim name match.
The name Su-edin or Su-rum is similar to Sodom/Saedom. Since d and r interchange in Hebrew, and since u and o often interchange, one can see that Surum exactly matches Sodom. (Furthermore, if the Solymites of some sources or the Somorrha/Somorrhon of Josephus match Sodom then we see confirmation of d & r & l versions and interchanges?) The variant Suedin is also not too dissimilar to Sodom or Siddim since m and n sometimes interchange in/between some languages.
For the variant name Shu-edin-hum/S(h)iri-hum / Shu-rum-hum? /Siru-hum? one can also see how similar it is to both Sodom and Siddim again with the d and r interchange in Hebrew.
Edin is synonymous with Sadu in the Epic of Gilgamesh, and Sadu is also similar to Sodom?
In Genesis it says the Sodom area was like the garden of the lord (Eden). Some also believe that the garden of Eden was in the Israel/Palestine area, or under the Dead Sea (which area Ezekiel says will on day be transformed into a fertile Eden-like place). We notice that the names Suedin "good Edin city/land" and Shuedinhum "garden Edin fruitful" have Edin and "garden" in them.
Sodom was among the "cities of the plain".
In the name Su-edin the word edin means "steppeland" or "plain".
Dead Sea match.
Sodom was in the Dead Sea area.
Suedin was near the Lower Sea. The Lower Sea is supposed to be the Indian Ocean, including the gulf of Aqaba. Though it could also/alternatively fit the Dead Sea. Sitchin similarly placed the waters of death mentioned in the Epic of Gilgamesh in the Dead Sea area.
Attacked match and Arioch match?
Sodom rebelled and was attacked by the 4 kings of the east including Arioch, and the 4 kings carried of their persons and possessions.
Suedin revolted and was attacked by Sargon/S(h)arru(m)(u)kin/Sarrugi/Lugalukin/Lugalgin(a) who carried of their possessions (refs Sargon's Chronicle, and Omens). Sarrugi/Sarrukin is maybe similar to Arioch.
Suedin/Subartu is also associated with Eannatum whose name might match Tidal (with an n & l interchange, and transposition, and exclusion of the -(u)m suffix).
Waddell supposed Suedin to also be associated with Etana/Etina/Gal, Urnina/Urnanshe/Uruash-khad, and Amadgal/Akurgal, whose names might link with Tidal, Chedorlaomer, and Amraphel? Though Waddell's scenario seems probably wrong.
Edin also appears in the Epic of Gilgamesh, and Gilgamesh is a candidate of ours for Kedorlaomer.
Sodom & Gomorrah match?
Sodom is associated with Gomorrah.
The Su or Suedin is also associated with the Gu or Guti/Gutium/Gutians or Guedin.
Possible location match.
Sodom was in Syria-Palestine and was west of Mesopotamia/Iraq.
Suedin/Subartu is supposed to have been in north-western Mesopotamia, and its name might be the origin of the name Syria.
Suedin was supposedly east of Sumeria/Akkad/Babyonia/Assyria, and east of Ansha(n) in Elam/Persia/Iran, but this might be disputable. Also, compass points reversed at one or more times in world history. In one version Suedin is "behind/back", and in Semitic the west is behind.
Suedin/Subartu is in the "north" in some later sources. But this could be a modern mistake, or an ancient confusion or relocation, or another namesake, or pre-directions/poles change.
Su- can also mean "south" in Indo-European.
Excluding Gertoux's very dubious Shutu match I haven't found or seen/heard of any other match for Sodom in Sumerian/Akkadian except for Sidamu in Eblaite records, or Sirim in the Urnina/Urnanshe plaque, or Sumadru/Sumaddi/Shuruppak in the Sumerian king list. The Eblaite one is very disputed.
Regarding the claim that Tell el-Hammam matches Sodom, this is certainly wrong because:
Date is too late.
Middle Bronze Age and "1600s" bc is too late for Abraham who was ca 2000s in Massoretic (215 + 430 + 480 yrs before Solomon). Even more so too late when we consider that the conventional Egyptian/Palestinian/Mesopotamian dynasties/strata dates are too long/old by a few centuries and the true dates will be lower.
No name match.
Tell el-Hammam is not demonstrated to have name Sodom or Gomorrah associated with it in any sources?
Not never again inhabited:
The bible seems to say that Sodom and the other cities were never inhabited again (Genesis 19:25, Deut 29:23, 1 Ki 14:24? 1 Ki 22:46, Isa 1:9, Isa 13:20, Jer 49:18, Jer 50:40, Zeph 2:9), but Tell el Hammam was inhabited from the Chalcolithic to Middle Bronze Age, and from Iron Age II to Ummayad period.
Location has problems:
The bible implies that the whole plain was in danger (Genesis 19:17, 19:25, 19:28), so I fail to see why Jericho was not also wiped out.
It seems strange that there is no evidence of the fire and brimstone at Jericho if Sodom was at the northern end of the Dead Sea.
Misinterpretation, and uniformitarianism:
The whole Hammam theory is based on a misinterpretation of the verse that says Lot went towards the Jordan valley. But the verse says Lot went as far as Sodom. Also, the Jordan valley may have extended further down before the Dead Sea was filled up with water.
They are wrongly assuming the geography is the same now or was the same in later biblical times as it was in Abraham's time.
Not necessary destroyed by fire from sky:
I'm not so sure Hammam was destroyed by fire from the sky, and even if it was there were other similar instances in history like Elijah at Mt Carmel.
There is "no sulphur" at Hammam. The bible says it rained fire and brimstone/sulphur, not "cosmic blast" or "airburst" from meteorite. Jason Colavito says the claim that Hammam was destroyed by an airburst is "disputable".
There is no way Sodom was destroyed (Abraham's time) at the same time as Jericho's walls (Joshua's time) as theorists suggest.
Could Hammam be seen by Abraham from Hebron?
Sure, in Genesis 13 Abraham and Lot did look from Bethel & Ai over towards the cities of the plain. But Abraham later looked from Hebron/Mamre. If Abraham could see as far as Hammam from Hebron, then Abraham and Lot could see as far as the top/north half of the Dead Sea from Bethel/Ai. Besides Genesis 13 doesn't say they saw Sodom from Bethel, only that they saw the plain of the Jordan, and mentioning only Zoar, though it does mention the "cities of the plain".
There is a better match for the gateway of Sodom mentioned in Genesis: Imposing fortifications & gate(way) Bab ed Dra? West gate & new gateway n.e. side Bab edh Dhra ("gate of the arm")?
No one seems to consider the meanings of the names.
Sodom/Sedom "consuming, burning" / "scorch, burnt, volcanic, bituminous" / "fasten, fortify, strengthen" / "secret, mystery, hidden" (Hebrew).
Su-edin(-ki)/Subartu/'Sumasti /Su-rum "good Edin (city/land)" (Sumerian/Akkadian).
Shu-edin-hum/S(h)iri-hum / Shu-rum-hum? /Siru-hum? /Edin-hum? / Rum-hum? "garden Edin fruitful" (Sumerian/Akkadian).
(Edin "steppe(land), plain".)
Gomorrah/Ghamorah/Amorah "heap" or "submersion, be deep, copious (water)" or "a pile of ruins" or "(corn) sheaf".
Ad(a)mah "fort" / "earthy".
Zeboiim/Zeboyim "deer (plural), goats, gazelles, roes" or "hyenas".
Bela "destroying, destruction".
Zoar/Segor "little, smallness" / "window/sky-light, enlightenment from above".
Lasha "cleft, fissure, break", "spring".
Emeq Siddim emeq "valley" of siddim "pitted vale" / "the plains, flats", or
Emeq Shaveh (Kiriathaim) emeq "valley" of shaveh "plain", or
Emeq ha-Melek "King's Dale/Valley".
'Kikkar ha Yarden/Jordan' from kikkar "circle, round (loaf of bread), circular disk for payment, tract/region, plain, valley, flat, low lying" and ha "the" and Yrdn "descender".
Kikkar "circle, round (loaf of bread), circular disk for payment, tract/region, the plain, valley, flat, low lying"
Eretz ha Kikkar from eretz "land/earth" (of) ha "the" kikkar "circle, round (loaf of bread), circular disk for payment, tract/region, plain, valley, flat, low lying".
'iyr/eer/arey ha Kikkar from iyr/eer/arei "cities" ha "of/the" kikkar "circle, round (loaf of bread), circular disk for payment, tract/region, plain, valley, flat, low lying"
Dubious relevance of Kikkar:
I can not see any "round/circular" valley/plain of the Jordan anywhere between the Sea of Galilee and the Dead Sea. There is a small slightly circular area around Hammam and Jericho but it is too small to be the plain/valley of the Jordan or to match the cities of the plain/valley. So if kikkar "plain/valley" is circular then it must be in the Dead Sea, and/or else it is not "circular/round".
"Such a large site not mentioned in bible must be Sodom":
As for Bronze Age Hammam being a larger area than Bronze Age Jericho and Jerusalem/Jebus/Salem, and comparable to Hazor, and not being mentioned in the bible "and so it can only be Sodom", either it is mentioned later in the bible (maybe as Abel-Shittim or Beth-Haram/Beth-Haran), or maybe it is not mentioned (perhaps because it may fall between Joseph and Joshua). Jericho was not mentioned until Joshua's time. To say it must be Sodom because it is not mentioned in the bible doesn't even make sense, because Hammam's occupation didn't end with the "airblast" that supposedly matches Sodom's destruction. It was also occupied later, and yet it still is not mentioned. The Hebrews were in the area before they crossed the Jordan and encountered Jericho, yet the text doesn't say "at/near Sodom". And since the "1600s" MBA date is a couple/few centuries too late it was occupied after Abraham's time anyway.
Based on tenuous bible development theories:
Despite people trashing the reliability of the bible on the basis of the Documentary Hypothesis and composition in Babylonian/Persian times, there is no proof that the biblical account is unreliable, and even the Documentary and late composition theory has some conflicting evidences to the contrary.
So for all the above reasons surveyed we can be totally certain that Hammam is not Sodom. Sodom is more likely to be either in the Lishan "tongue" or Bab edh Dhra area, or under the larger northern half of the sea, or south-east coast (Numeira area), or the Sedom/Usdum area. Compare the position of Tiahuanaco (Atlantis city) in relation to lake Titicaca (which is inverse to position of Eridu to Persian gulf).
(The plain of the 5 cities might be analogous to the Plain of Atlantis and the plain of Tiahuanaco. Though the biblical one is "circular/round" and low, while the Atlantis/Tiahuanaco one is rectangular and high.)
Sodom and Gomorrah might be like twin cities. Atlantis/Tiahuanaco is sometimes represented as a twin city/cities like a figure 8. In the map here http://www.biblearchaeology.org/post/2008/04/The-Discovery-of-the-Sin-Cities-of-Sodom-and-Gomorrah.aspx it looks like Jebel Usdum may be twin cities not just one? Josephus has a name Somorrha which may combine Sodom and Gomorrah?
Sodom's sin was not so much homosexuality, but because of "lies/lying, they were arrogant, pride, haughty, unconcerned, didn’t care about the poor/needy", and "addiction to highway robberies", and "did not hide their sin but paraded their sin" (Isa 3:9, Ezek 16:49, Rev 11:8).
Btw Sitchin says "pillar of salt" can be read "vapourised". So looking for a human shaped pillar is no use.
For further details not included here see my posts on Sodom or posts including Sodom
Alan Alford Gods of the New Millenium
Epic of Gilgamesh
Enmerkar & Aratta
Dr David E Graves smyrnean.blogspot.com
Werne Keller Bible as History
Walter Mattfeld www.bibleorigins.net
Roger M Pearlman (papers on academia.edu site)
Z Ragozin 'Chaldea'
David M Rohl
Sumerian King List
Jim Stinehart (Ancient Bible History group posts)
LA Waddell Makers of Civilization
Monday, September 27, 2021
King Arthur as Vortimer
Arthur and Vortimer: A Look at the Matches Evidences.
Is Arthur son of Uther the same as Vortimer son of Vortigern?
In this short paper we take a look at the matches of the names
and details of Arthur and Vortimer, and Uther and Vortigern in an
attempt to show why we see this match is feasible, and in attempt
to answer some of the criticisms.
1. Matches between Arthur and Vortimer.
Both similar names and similar fathers' names:
His name is Artus/Arthus /Arzhur/Arthur/Arthwr/Artuir/Artur /Arturo /Arturus/Arthurus /Arturius (HB, AC, HRB).
He is son of Uter/Uther (Pendragon) (and Igerne/Igraine) (HB, HRB/DGB).
His name is Vortimer/Guorthemir/Gwerthefyr/Gwrthefyr (HB, HRB/DGB).
He is son of Vortigern (HB, HRB).
Both names Uther (&/or Igerne) & Arthur, and Vortiger(n) & Vortimer/Gw(e)rthefyr of both sources are very similar and linguistically able to match when considering all spellings/pronounciations versions of the 4 names. The only major dispute is with the Gw- of Vortimer, and this being dropped or interchanging or corresonded is not as a major issue as some people make out. Compare Gwarthur & Arthur, Arthur/"Wart", Garthwys/Arthwys, Loyngarth/Llwynarth, Gwarthan & Artan or Arthen.
No one has found any historical person with the name Arthur/Uther in historical sources like the Gallic Chronices, DEB, EH, ASC, so therefore either Arthur/Uther didn't exist or he didn't have a name exactly spelt Arthur/Uther or he was/is an obscure/minor/unknown/lesser figure.
In the HRB/DEB there are indeed 4 or 2 persons coming in between Vortigern and Arthur (Vortigern, Vortimer, Vortigern, Merlin/Ambrosius, Uther, Arthur), but the HRB is not a reliable source and it developed and added more to the earlier DEB and HB. Duplicating persons is not unknown in traditions or literature. Moreoever, genealogically Vortigern and Vortimer are a different parallel genealogical line to Ambrosius or Uther and Arthur. Genealogically there is only Ambrosius or Uther and Arthur parallel to Vortigern and Vortimer between Vortigern and Arthur (HRB).
The HB does mention all of Vortigern, Vortimer, Ambrosius/Emrys, Uter/Uther (only in some versions and not necessarily as a separate person to Arthur), and Arthur, but it is not in a definite orderly succession, and Nennius admitted he "heaped" alot together haphazard.
In the DEB there is only the sequence Vortigern, Ambrosius, and the progeny of Ambrosius or 5 contemporary tyrants or 4 beasts (which the HRB/DGB makes 4 successive kings).
Moreover some sources imply that both Vortimer and Arthur fought Octa and were both in the 400s, which closes the alleged gap between the father Vortigern and the son Arthur in the extended HRB succession of kings. 470 slain of Arthur may be a date, and it is only 10 more than the 460 slain of Vortigern's reign.
Both similar series of battles:
"Three several battles", or 3 x 4 = 12 battles, or 3 x 3 = 9 battles sites (HB, PG), maybe matching 9 SS forts.
(4 battles at Dubglas. 3 battles at Tribruit? 3 days at Jerusalem/Guinnion or Badon.)
His first 3 battles might match the 455, 457 & 465 battles in the ASC.
Vortimer offered 12 pennies reward for the head of any heathen brought to him (Layamon).
7 or 8 years civil war (Morant).
Vortimer's "chief ports of the island", maybe matching 9 SS forts.
Vortimer's 4 battles & thrice enclosed (HB, HRB).
"sometimes extended their boundaries by victory, and sometimes were conquered and driven back" (HB).
Vortimer's battles supposedly match the battles of 455, 457, 465/466, & 473 in the ASC.
The 1st campaign of Vortimer and the 2nd campaign of Arthur are both treated by various sources/people as being similar, analogous, successive, and therefore there is no reason why they might not be wholly or partly the same rather than wholly successive.
Both 3 days:
Arthur was at Guinnion &/or Badon for 1 or 3 days (HB, AC).
Thrice enclosed (HB).
Both in Kent:
Collingwood, Jackson, Evans and others consider the HB's words to imply that Arthur fought Saxons and specifically Kentishmen (because they occur immediately after mention of Octa), and the 12 battes or 9 battle sites might match either the Saxon Shore forts, Vortimer's battes, or the ASC battles in Kent, Sussex & Wessex, all 3 of which are primarily in Kent.
Vortimer's battles are supposed to match battles in Kent in the ASC, and to match sites in Kent (Dartford/Darent/Crayford, Kit's Coty, Ebbsfleet, Stone in Kent, Richborough, Thanet).
Vortimer was in the east of Britain, on the east of Watling street (Morant).
Both fought same person or person of same time:
Arthur fought Octa (HB), Osla/Ossa (Rhonabwy), Ossa cousin of Otca/Octa son of Hengist (Dingestow HRB).
Vortimer fought Octa/Ebissa (HRB/DGB), Esc/Oisc (ASC).
Both similar not fully historical persons:
Arthur does not occur under/with that name in any reliable early fully historical source (ASC, EH, DEB, Gallic Chronicles), those he does occur in are late and not fully reliable historical (HB, HRB/DGB, PG, AC, Triads, Gododdin, Mabinogion, Saints Lives). Ergo "Arthur" is not a fully historical person.
Vortimer doesn't occur in any fully historical sources (DEB, ASC, EH) but only in not fully historical sources (HB, HRB/DGB, Wace, Layamon), and so he is not a fully historical person.
Since both are not fully historical figures there is no problem with identifying them.
To be sure both Arthur and Vortimer occur in the HB and HRB/DGB, but these are not fully reliable historical sources, and Nennius/Mark said he "heaped" alot together, and the HRB/DGB has demonstrably obviously much derived alot from the DEB & HB and extended and developed and added. Duplications of characters is not unknown in tradition or literature.
He was a "king" or high king in some sources.
He was a king or high king in some sources.
Both similar epithet before/after their name:
"Arthur the Blessed" ('Taliesin').
'Magnanimous Arthur' (HB).
"king of great praise, one of the most praiseworthy sovereigns of the whole world, the most generous, the most merciful" (24 Kings document).
munificence, generosity (HRB).
code of courtliness (HRB).
code of chivalry/conduct (French Romances).
Arthur reigned in peace for 12 yrs (HRB).
Grants pardon to Scots (HRB).
'Vortimer Fendiagid' / 'Vortimer the Blessed' / 'St Vortimer'.
"Vortimer's kindness" (HRB/DGB).
"Great man" (HRB).
"to show them all marks of his affection and esteem", "his goodness" (HRB).
Both similar name/place battle site:
Celidon/Caledon might be the Weald which is the Caledonian wood of Caesar's invasion. Cat Coit Caledon might match Kit's Coty (or Chatham) &/or Coldrum.
One of his battles was supposedly at Kit's Coty / Aylesford.
Both similar 400s dates:
He was in the 400s and/or 500s. (450 in Malory. 470 in HRB, ca 493 in EH.)
He was in the 400s.
Both similar "Christian" associations:
He carried Christ/Cross and/or Mary at Guinnion &/or Badon (HB, AC).
He fought Badon with Dubricius' help/prayer/blessing (HRB).
'Vortimer the Blessed' / 'St Vortimer'.
Vortimer held a synod at Guatherniaun (HB).
Both close in time to Vortigern:
The Life of St Goeznovius seems to suggest that Arthur's campaign took place very soon after the time of Vortigern, if not immediately after it.
"Merlin lived first at the court of Vortigern and then at King Arthur's court", which appears like Arthur comes just after Vortigern?
He was son of Vortigern and lead the Britons in battle during Vortigern's reign, and/or was king after Vortigern's 1st reign and before Vortigern's 2nd reign.
He was British/Welsh/Celtic.
He was British/Welsh/Celtic.
Both similar mysterious grave locations:
"Arthur's grave not known", "an eternal wonder is the grave of Arthur" (Black Book of Carmarthen).
Arthur's grave is "nowhere seen" (William of Malmesbury).
Arthur died at Camlan (HRB, AC) and sleeps at Avalon (HRB, Triads).
"King Arthur died at Bwlch y Saethau".
Arthur died at city of lions/lyonesse.
(Gawain's grave is at "Rutupi" or "Dover").
He was buried in either a brazen pyramid in the port where Saxons first landed (HB, HRB), or in the chief ports of the island, or Trinovantum/London (HRB/DGB), or in Belyn's Gate / London (Wace, Layamon), or Lincoln (Rapin), or Richborough (Vortigern Studies).
The place name Rhyd-yr-afaelin in Vortimer's battle list is maybe similar to Avalon/Afallach?
Both linked with similar south-eastern coastal port(s) :
The Porter (PG).
Hamo's Port (HRB).
"the port where Saxons first landed".
"chief ports of the island".
Both connected with similar great saughters:
Slew 470/940/960/840 at Badon (HB, Irish HB, HRB/DGB).
"Great slaughter" at Guinnion (HB).
Camlan associated with Slaughter Bridge.
"the slaughter of the Saxons" at Epsford (HB).
Both similar place name:
Guinnion/Guinnon/Guinon/Gunnion/Gurnion/Guindoin (HB, Irish HB) of uncertain etymological origin.
Both similar messianic return theme:
"once and future king", "KA's messianic return".
"Arthur is not dead" (Cornish).
"before his decease, anxious for the future prosperity of his country, he charged his friends to inter his body at the entrance of the Saxon port, ..." "for though they may inhabit other parts of Britain, yet if you follow my commands, they will never remain in this island." (HB.)
"endeavoured to comfort them in their sorrow and lamentation for him, telling them, he was only going the way of all flesh". (HRB).
"that the sight of his tomb might frighten back the barbarians to Germany. For he said none of them would dare approach the country, that should but get a sight of his tomb. ... as he had been a terror to them while living, endeavoured to be no less so when dead." (HRB).
"because he thought Vortimer was yet living" (HRB/DGB).
Link with Hengist:
Book of Hergest.
Both linked with Thanet area:
"Thanet" and ships in the Badon aftermath chapter of the HRB/DGB.
"Emperor of Rome".
City of the legion was a "2nd Rome".
"Valley of Suesia" (HRB).
Thanet (HB, HRB/DGB).
Epsford (HB, HRB).
Thanet was called Ruim/Ruym/Ruoichin/Ruithin.
Thanet is near to both Rutupi & Regubium/Reculver.
Epsford may match the Ebbsfleet & Wantsum-Stour area.
The Wantsum-Stour may match the Valley of Suesia?
Both drove the Saxons out of the island/land:
The 2nd battle of Clarence was a "great victory ... drives Saxons out of England".
"the pagans/Saxons (were) turned/put in/to flight" &/or "pursued" at Guinnion (HB).
Arthur "drove out the Pagans" at Guinnion (Irish HB).
"Thanet" and ships in HRB's Badon aftermath chapter.
"the Saxons being defeated, fled to their ships" (HB).
"for though they may inhabit other parts of Britain, yet if you follow my commands, they will never remain in this island. (HB)".
"Vortimer fought 4 times against the Saxons, and put them to flight" (HB).
"drove them to Thanet" (HB).
"began to drive out the barbarians" (HRB).
"the enemies fled shamefully to their ships" (HRB/DGB).
"And when they were no longer able to bear the assaults of the Britons, they sent ... to ... Vortimer, to desire leave to depart, and return back safe to Germany. And ... they in the meantime went on board their long galleys, and, ..., returned back to Germany." (HRB.)
Both leader of kings/knights of Britons:
Arthur is dux bellorum "leader of battles" of the kings of the Britons in 12 battles (HB).
Arthur heads the 12/24/150 knights of the Round Table.
"they fought against the kings and princes of Britain" (HB).
The Britons "unanimously set up Vortimer for their king" (HRB).
Both similar siege:
Badon was a siege (DEB) and "a most severe contest" (HB). Guinnion was a fort(let).
Siege Perilous seat at Round Table.
"besieged" Saxons at Thanet (HB, HRB/DGB).
Both had one or a fleet of ships/boats:
Arthur's ship/boat Pry(d)wen.
Arthur crossed to Gaul/France from Hamo's Port, and back to Rutupi (DGB/HRB).
The Porter (PG)?
Arthur taken to Avalon on a boat/ship/barge.
"with his fleet".
Both called soldiers:
"brave soldier" (HRB/DGB).
Both victorius in all their battles:
Was victorius in all his battles (except the 1st) (HB).
The "Britons were the victors" at Badon (AC/WA).
"Great victory of Arthur against the Saxons on St David's birthday/day 540/640" (Shakespeare and the Welsh).
"Vortimer fought 4 times against the Saxons, and put them to flight" (HB).
"the Saxons being defeated, fled to their ships" (HB).
"was victorius in all" (HRB/DGB).
"after this great success" (HRB).
Arthur was "the most valiant" (24 Kings document).
"did valourously encounter the enemy" (HB).
"admirable bravery" (HRB).
Both similar battle site name/place:
Vortimer's battle at Ep(i)sford.
Vortimer fought Ebissa (HRB).
Vortimer's brother Pascent(ius) (HB, HRB).
Both fought the first battles on rivers with similar name or meaning or description:
Arthur fought on 3 or 4 rivers (Glein, Dubglas, Bassas, Tribruit?)
Vortimer fought on 2 rivers (Darent, Epsford/"Aylesford"). The description "super flumen" is similar. Simiar D- river names. Similar black/dark & white names and meainings. Bassas and Epsford have similar names when considering the various names Wipped, Wippedsfleot, Eosa, Ebissa, Eopa, Ebbsfleet, Ipwinesfleet, Bassas, and when considering Ethelwerd's statement about the Thesean sea and Aegeans sea. Glein is similar to "Aylesford" considering the spellings of "Aylesford" in the ASC & Ethelwerd.
Both associated with a similar holy-like person:
Associated with the magician/antichrist Merlin, bishop/saint Dubricius, bishop Bawdewyn.
Associated with bishop/saint Germanus/Garmon.
Both had 1 sister mentioned:
Had a sister Anna.
"his father and sister" (HB).
Vortigern's daughter in some sources (Life of Germanus? Will of Malmesbury.)
Both supposedly fought Cerdic/Cedric:
Arthur fought Cheldric (HRB).
Vortimer fought Cherdich (HRB/DGB).
Both fought similar alternating victory and defeat series of battles:
Arthur fought 12/9/7 battles (HB, PG).
When Arthur fought Lucius "sometimes the Britons prevailing, sometimes the Romans" (HRB/DGB).
Arthur was the leader at Badon in the HB, and the DEB says Badon was almost the last of the battles during which "sometimes our countrymen, sometimes the enemy won" (DEB 26).
"No one should be surprised at the changes in human fortunes that sometimes it is necessary to win and sometimes to flee" (HRB?)
"sometimes extended their boundaries by victory, and sometimes were conquered and driven back" (HB).
Both prominent persons:
He is prominent/famous person.
He is a prominent/famous person.
The argument that Vortimer is less prominent than Arthur is invalid because Arthur might/may be Vortimer, and Vortimer is prominent/famous in what few mentionings there are, and Arthur was more minor in the earliest mentionings like the HB, and Arthur has been subsequently alot more developed than Vortimer, and both are in not fully reliable historical sources.
Both may be connected with Ambrosius:
* Arthur & Vortimer indirect match via Ambrosius/Aurelius:
Arthur lead at Badon (HB, AC) matches Ambrosius lead at Badon (DEB).
The -imer in Vortimer's might match Amr/Emrys/Ambrosius? The Vor- might even match Aur- of Aurelius?
Both gave similar exhortation/comfort to their followers:
"Arthur's exhortation to his soldiers" (HRB).
"endeavoured to comfort them in their sorrow and lamentation".
Both restore and build churchs/monasteries:
"Arthur restores York to its ancient beauty, especially as to its churches." (HRB.)
Arthur "erected many religious houses and monasteries, and gave them endowments and salaries" (24 Kings document).
"Vortimer, ... began to restore his subjects to their possessions which had been taken from them, ..., and ... to rebuild their churches." (HRB.)
Both similar meetings events:
"solemn assembly" at city of legions (HRB).
(Round Table? Grail Quest?)
"synod" of Gwarthennian (HB).
Both had more Saxons arriving or arriving again during/after their series of battles:
"The more the Saxons were vanquished, the more they sought for new supplies of Saxons from Germany" (HB).
"begged for leave to go out; in consideration whereof they offered to leave all their gold and silver behind them, and return back to Germany with nothing but their empty ships. They promised also that they would pay him tribute from Germany" (HRB), and shortly after they return to the "Totness"/"Severn" area.
"The Saxons now despatched deputies to Germany to solicit large reinforcements, and an additional number of ships." (HB.)
Both similarly distributed rewards:
"Arthur amply rewards his servants".
"Vortimer, ..., began to restore his subjects to their possessions which had been taken from them, and to show them all marks of his affection and esteem, and ... to rebuild their churches. But his goodness .... Hereupon he ... distributed among them all the treasure his predecessors had heaped up...." (HRB.)
Both similar place name:
Camelot, maybe from melyn "yellow".
Malory "moved Arthur to London".
Arthur's court in London in the HRB.
Belyn's Gate, London (Layamon).
Campo Lapidem (HB).
Both similar battle site name/location:
Arthur's 6th/9th battle at the city of the legion may match the 5th Saxon Shore fort Rutupi/Richborough (Legio II Augusta) in my match of the 9 battle sites with the 9 Saxon Shore forts.
Vortimer's battle at Campo Lapidem is supposed by some to have been at Richborough.
Vortimer requested to be buried at the port where the Saxons first landed, and a 'Vortigern Studies' article reckons Vortimer's cenotaph was at Richborough.
2. Matches between Uther and Vortigern.
Non-historical figure can match historical figure:
Uther does not occur in any reliable early fully historical source, those he does occur in are late and not fully reliable historical (some HB versions, HRB/DGB). Ergo "Uther" is not a fully historical person.
Vortigern occurs in historical sources (DEB, ASC) and other sources (HB, HRB/DGB), and so he can be accept as being historical.
Since Uther is not a fully historical figure there is no problem with identifying him with the more historical Vortigern.
Both have similar names and similar sons' names:
His name is Ute/Uter/Uther/Uthyr/Vthyr /Iubher/Gwythyr Pen(draggon)/Pandragun (and his wife's name is Igerne/Igraine).
He is father of Arthur.
His name is Vortigern/Vortiger/Vortigen/Wurtgern/Wyrtgeorne /Vurthern/Urtigernus /Guorthegirn/Guorthigirn/Guarthi(gern) /Gwrtheyrn / Gurthrigern.
He is father of Vortimer/Gw(e)rthefyr.
Both names Uther (&/or Igerne) & Arthur, and Vortiger(n) & Vortimer/Gw(e)rthefyr of both sources are very similar and linguistically able to match when considering all spellings/pronounciations versions of the 4 names. The only major dispute is with the Gw- of Vortimer, and this being dropped or interchanging or corresonded is not as a major issue as some people make out, compare Gwarthur & Arthur, Arthur/"Wart", Garthwys/Arthwys, Loyngarth/Llwynarth.
Both their names have similar meanings:
His name Uther means "terrible warrior" or "horrible son" or "wonderful head" or "half-dead king".
His other name Pendragon means "chief dragon, warchief, foremost leader, chief leader in war" or "wonderful head", a chief invested with supreme power.
His name means "hero king, great king, overlord", and he is called "proud/superb tyrant" or "ignorant king" or "wicked king".
Vortigern lead in the first battle(s) in the ASC.
Both were similar kings and/or overlords:
Was king / high king (HRB).
He was Pendragon "head dragon", a chief invested with supreme "Uther was the legendary chief king of Britain who overcame all the petty kings. Pendragon, meaning chief leader in batte or chief dragon, ... was given to or assumed by military leaders who excercised kingly powers".
Was king / high king (HRB).
He was "great king, overlord".
He was proud tryant / superb tyrant (DEB, HB, HRB, ASC).
"he seems to have won for himself a position of authority not unlike that which had been held by the governors of Roman Britain ... authority which evidently ran over most of the Lowland zone of Britain, if it in fact reached as far as Kent...."
"The dissolution of traditional government provided throughout the empire an an opportunity for native tribal chieftains to seize the power into their own hands: so Vortigern came to dominate the country on both sides of the Thames and not simply Kent alone."
"We can only guess that he was a soldier who, by his success in warfare against the Saxons, won for himself much the same kind of position as had formerly been held by Vortigern."
"Whether or not Vortigern's authority extended to this part of Britain.... .... The fact, ... that Vortigern was able to take what he, ... regarded as measures for the security of Kent, ... out to mean that the whole of southern and eastern Britain from Kent as far away as his homeland in the Wroxeter area was at that time, ... under his controlling hand."
Both were British:
Both are contemporaries:
* Uther & Vortigern:
Both are contemporaries in the HRB/DGB.
Both fought near-contemporaries:
Uther fought Octa & Eosa in the HRB.
Vortigern fought Hengist & Horsa in 455 (ASC).
Both associated with a similar set/series of forts:
Pascent invaded & destroyed all the ... forts from "Albania" to "York" (HRB)?
"Hengist forces Vortigern to yield up the strongest fortifications in Britain" (HRB).
Both associated with Ambrosius or Merlin:
Uther buried close by Ambrosius within Giant's Dance (HRB).
Ambrosius & Uther went to France/Gaul (HRB)
Vortigern & Dimetia/Britons vs Ambrosius & Dumnonii/Romans (HB).
Merlin advised/helped Uther with how to get Igraine, and how to get the Giant's Dance.
"Merlin the prophet of Vortigern" (HRB/DGB).
Both are maybe connected with dragons:
Pendragon "head dragon".
Uther ordered 2 dragons made to be carried with him in his wars, one of which he uses as his standard.
Red vs white dragon.
The symbol of Vortigern's contemporary Hengist and/or of the Jutes or Kentishmen was a white dragon or white horse.
Both ambiguous figures/natures:
"He is a fairly ambiguous individual throughout the literature, but is described as a strong king and a defender of his people."
Pendragon "dragon head" may mean nature of a dragon?
He is castigated by sources for various bad points.
Both sons of fathers with similar names and details:
He is son of Constantine/Custennin.
He is son in law of Hengist/Hengest.
Hengist said to Vortigern "I will be a father to you" (HB).
Hengist & Horsa and Constantine & Constans (or Conan?) have similar names and similar relationships (except the former are brothers and the latter father & son), and they both were invited to come from Armorica/Letavia/Brittany or Germany to Britain to fight Scots/Irish & Picts.
Both associated with Ambrius:
He was buried at Giant's Dance / Stonehenge near Ambrius (HRB).
He meet the Saxons at Ambrius/Ambresbury (HRB).
Both had a similar son and daughter.
Uther's comet symbolises a son and a daughter (HRB).
Uther's daughter Anna/Morgause.
Vortigern has three or four sons but only one is prominent, and he has a daughter.
Both associated with persons with similar name:
Gorlois/Gerlois duke of Cornwall.
Gorangan/Guoyrancgonus king of Kent his contemporary acquaintance.
Horsa his contemporary acquaintance.
Gloui his ancestor or Gloucester his civitas.
Town of Genoreu (HRB), Mt Cloarius (HRB).
St Germanus contemporary of Vortigern (HB, HRB)?
Both similar stories about their lust for women/wives:
Uther "becomes obsessively enamoured of" Igraine and "falls in love" with her (HRB). Igraine "recoiled" from Uther's advances, and "Uther had her husband killed in order to forcibly marry her", but she later marries him (HRB).
Vortigern was "seduced by Rowena" the "daughter of Hengist", and she was "peaceably" married off to him as part of an agreement/alliance. ("Seduced" doesn't always mean the way people think, eg sometimes "raped" and "seduced" are related. Compare the sons of god and daughters of men in Genesis 6, and/or the Romans and Sabine women, and some other stories in other sources.)
Vortigern's "love for a pagan woman" Rowena "who he so much loved" (HB 45).
Vortigern is an "imprudent king" or "ignorant king" or "wicked king" or "unlucky king" who is "denigrated for his misjudgement" and "evils" and was "wholly given up to the lusts of the flesh, the slave of every vice: a character of insatiable avarice, ungovernable pride, and polluted by his lusts" and was "wasting the resources of the kingdom in riotous living, he was awake only to the blandishments of abandoned women" (GRA).
In other sources Vortigern lusted and committed incest with "his own daughter".
Vortigern had "other wives" (HB 47) so he sounds abit lusty.
Vortigern also married Sevira "daughter of Maximus" (Pillar of Eliseg).
(Note that since all 3 of Rowena and Sevira and Vortigern's daughter are specially described as "daughter of" and are similar loves of Vortigern, it may mean a connection or confounding of the 3 different love stories.)
Both them and their wives and their wives fathers were friends and enemies at times:
Gorlois was one of Uther's retainers/vassals and they were "celebrating their victories" before Uther "killed" Gorlois.
Igraine "recoiled" from Uther, and Uther "killed" her husband Gorlois in order to forcibly marry her, but she afterwards marries him (HRB).
Vortigern & Hengist were friends and/or enemies at various stages.
"Rowena seduced Vortigern."
Vortigern married Rowena "peaceably".
I am sure that Rowena a younger gooder Saxon would not have been too keen to marry an older bader Briton, so that matches your Igraine "recoiled", besides which Igraine afterwards married Uther.
"Hengist, being informed of their design by messengers sent from his daughter".
(And if she had to marry him it implies whoever she would rather have married was "killed"?)
Castle of Dimilioc (HRB).
Catel Drunluc (HB).
Gorlois is "one of Uther's retainers/vassals" (HRB).
Hengist was hired by Vortigern (DEB, ASC, HB, HRB).
Gorangan/Guoyrancgonus was a sub-king of Vortigern in Kent (HB).
Both at a similar banquet:
"At a banquet celebrating their victories" (Uther & Gorlois episode).
"Hengist, under pretence of ratifying the treaty, prepared an entertainment, to which he invited the king.... .... The king with his company, appeared at the feast; and mixing with the Saxons" (HB).
"And if these terms pleased Vortigern, he desired him to appoint a time and place for their meeting, and adjusting matters according to his pleasure. ... at last ordered his subjects and the Saxons to meet ... at the monastery of Ambrius, for the settling of the matters above-mentioned. The appointment being agreed to on both sides, ... and while the conference should be held with the Britons, who would have no suspicion of them, .... Accordingly they all met at the time and place appointed, and began to treat of peace...." (HRB.)
Presumably this might have been a feast after wedding Rowena.
Both at a place with a similar name and nature/details:
impregnable castle Tintagel. (Tintagel in Cornwall was not associated with Arthur until the 1000s.)
Thanet given to Saxons as safe re invasion/takeover.
Tintagel and Thanet (or Dover) have similar names and analogous geographical features.
Their and/or their wives religions were not necessarily different:
Uther married "christian" Igraine".
Uther is linked with dragon(s) which might also imply a similar anti-christian/Satantic/pagan religion?
Uther lusted after Igraine, and they had an affair and they commited adultery.
Uther's name has been related to Bran. Igraine's name resembles Grainne or Igreen?
Vortigern was a Pelagian "christian" (who acted as bishop on an occasion in HRB?)
Vortigern was a follower of Merlin/Ambrosius.
Vortigern's "love for a pagan woman" Rowena daughter of Hengist. Hengist may be made into a "christian" as Constantine in the HRB (Hengist & Horsa and Constantine & Constans are similar names. Hengist invited from Germany to fight Scots matches Constantine invited from Brittany to fight Scots.)
Vortigern is linked with dragon(s) which might also imply a similar antichristian/pagan religion?
Vortigern offended bishop St Germanus (HB).
Vortigern was "seduced by Rowena".
Vortigern was a "wicked king" who is denigrated for his "evils" and was "wholly given up to the lusts of the flesh, the slave of every vice: a character of insatiable avarice, ungovernable pride, and polluted by his lusts" (GRA).
Their and/or their wives races or regions were not necessarily different:
Uther married Igraine who was "Cornish". Localities names in Arthurian sources are not always so literarily correct as many assume/assert, eg "Albani" might not be Scotland but may be the Downs/Dover/Albion, or Britain/Albion, or Snowdon "white hill", or Guinnion/Alborum, or Verulam/St Albans. Sources like Geoffrey translated forgotten/unknown places to whatever places they theorised/supposed them to match (eg he made Linnuis "Lincoln" and Badon "Bath" and Urbelegionis "Caerleon" and Eidyn "Edinburgh" and Caledon wood "Caledonia"). So "Cornwall" might not be Cornwall promonitory in the southwest corner it might be analogous/similar Kent in southeast corner. Gorlois duke of Cornwall may match Gorangan/Guoyrancgonus king of Kent in HB? Mark and Tristan were Cornish and yet also associated with Brittany or France. Link of Dumnonii and Domnonee. Link of Cornwall and Kernev (Brittany). Or -wall might relate to other Gwal/Wal/Wall names.
Uther's &/or Igerna's names resemble Vortigern's (and the latter was British).
Uther was at Tintagel (HRB). But Tintagel in Cornwall was not associated with Arthur until the 1000s. Tintagel might be Thanet.
Uther had to appear like Gorlois which might mean Uther and Igraine were a different race or religion.
Uther was in Brittany for some time (HRB).
Uther is connected with Anjou in Eschenbach's work.
Uther's symbol was a dragon, which could be either Welsh red dragon or Jutish/Kentish white dragon.
Vortigern was British (Demetian or Gewissean), and he married his own daughter who is thus also British.
The location of Vortigern's castle/city is uncertain, being placed in various different provinces/counties.
Vortigern married Sevira daughter of Maximus who was a Roman.
Vortigern married Rowena daughter of Hengist who was a Saxon from Europe. Hengist invited from Germany to fight Scots matches Constantine invited from Brittany to fight Scots. (Hengist & Horsa and Constantine & Constans are similar names.)
Vortigern's symbol was a dragon, which could be either Welsh red dragon or Jutish/Kentish white dragon.
Vortigern's name resembles Uther's &/or Igerna's.
Gorangan/Guoyrancgonus sub-king of Kent in HB may match Gorlois duke of "Cornwall" in the HRB/DGB?
Answer to criticism that "Arthur can't be Vortimer or Ambrosius because the HB mentions them as two separate persons".
This is a pitiful artificial objection put forward by opponents who merely wish to hinder the issue with every possible clever argument they can. Where is all their evidences reasons for why Vortimer doesn't/can't match Arthur? Meanwhile we have provided heaps of strong details matches evidences reasons for the two possibly being the same.
Nennius said he "heaped" alot together.
Reduplication of characters is not unknown in traditions and myths/legends.
Roman "christian" sources are notorious for falsely lying and mixing saints and holy days and popes etc.
Look how Geoffrey even further expanded on the HB, so Nennius could have expanded on the DEB.
Nennius supposedly made the DEB's Ambrosius into two different persons.
There is no Arthur in the DEB, so Arthur as leader at Badon must be one of the persons mentioned in the DEB.
What real historical facts objections are there to Vortimer being Arthur? I mean like Vortimer and Arthur are both in non-historical sources, so no one can be so adamantly assertive that they can't be the same. (Vortimer only first appears in the HB and HRB. Arthur is pretty much first from the HB.)
Yes the HB has Vortimer during Hengist, and has Arthur's battles between Octa (after Hengist's death) and Ida. So I maybe might be wrong about Arthur possibly being Vortimer. But I can not be sure I am wrong because there are pretty intriguiung matches evidences for Arthur being Vortimer, and there are rooms for doubting the HB's narrative chronology order for either/both persons.
1. Vortimer doesn't occur in any fully historical sources, he only first appears in the HB and HRB/DGB (which used the HB as its source). Arthur also pretty much first majorly occurs in the HB. The HB is not a reliable fully historical source.
2. Nennius said he "heaped" alot together.
3. The battle list alternatively comes before or after the Life of Patrick, which may mean uncertain time placement.
4. Vortimer (ca 455-473) fights Hengist (HB, ASC, Evans/Arcus/Wiki), Horsa (HB, HRB, ASC, Evans/Arcus), Esc (ASC, Evans/Arcus), "Octa & Ebissa" (HRB), Cherdich (HRB), in Kent (ASC).
Arthur (between 421 and 584 in early traditional sources) fights Octa in Kent (HB, Collingwood, Jackson, Evans), Osla/Ossa (Rhonabwy), Ossa cousin of Otca/Octa son of Hengist (Dingestow HRB), Cerdic/Cheldric & Colgrin & Baldulph (HRB), Ida (HB)?
Esc/Octa isn't mentioned in the ASC after the death of Hengist ca 488.
The chronology/dates in sources like the ASC is disputed.
5. Vortimer's 4 battles might only match the first half of Arthur's 12 battles. The ASC battles of 455-473 may only match the first 3 or 4 of Arthur's battles. Vortimer and Arthur both have sleeping and messianic returns. So maybe the name "Vortimer/Arthur" was like the spirit of Arthur for the battles after the first four/half. Or maybe Vortimer/Arthur was used as a name/title similar to the use of Caesar.
6. The "North" of Hengist & Octa might only be Linnuis.
All the action in the ASC is in Kent, Sussex, Wessex.
Hengist maybe features in Arthurian tradition: Hergest; Gwyn Dragon.
"Hengist forces Vortigern to yield up the strongest fortifications in Britain" sounds like the Saxon Shore forts. (Compare Vortimer's bones buried in the Chief Ports of this Island. Pascent invaded & destroyed all the ... forts from "Albania" to "York".)
Arthur "came against" the Saxons and drove them out of the (is)land (Guinnion & Clarence). Vortimer did similar in the HB & HRB. Both suit the south-east not the west or north.
Dux Arthur leader at Badon may match duce Ambrosius leader at Badon. Vortimer and Ambrosius are both poisoned (DGB).
Whether Arthur is Vortimer or not I still see far more evidences for the south-east than the west or north. The only 3 matches for the 12 battles are all in the south-east (SS forts, Vortimer's battles, ASC battles), and some my most major Arthur candidates are too (Vortimer, Aethelbert, Vortigern).